Ordination Between Heaven and Earth

October 7, 2016, in the morning:


* I believe in women's ordination because the Father is not a male, and the Triune God is not a hierarchy. * I believe in women's ordination because the person who first saw and proclaimed the Son risen from the dead was a woman. * I believe in women's ordination because the Spirit is being poured out on all flesh, on sons and daughters, especially on the daughters. * I believe in women's ordination because of the circle of anointed women in Paul's life and ministry, Phoebe, Prisca, Mary, and Junia, to mention just a few. * I believe in women's ordination because of the priesthood of all believers. * I believe in women's ordination because of the promise -- come the day -- when they shall no longer say, every person to his brother and sister, "Know the Lord" because they shall ALL know me. * I believe in women's ordination because the person wielding the highest teaching authority in my faith community was a woman. * I believe in women's ordination because I have seen churches saved, lives transformed, and communities blessed by the ordination to ministry of women, given from above. 

This is a companion discussion topic for the original entry at https://spectrummagazine.org/article/2016/10/09/ordination-between-heaven-and-earth

Thanks be to G*d for his willingness to speak truth to hubris. Thanks, Sigve, for your willingness to speak humbly and confidently on his behalf.


I love this article! Someone speaking from the heart, with no nonsense, non-theological arguments. The Sandra Roberts treatment by the “world leadership” is particularly disgusting. Ted Wilson and company are simply showing how small minded and churlish they are.


I think Neale Donald Walsh, and things like that, have a similar tone to the missive from “God” above. Ouch

Sigve Tonstad is Assistant Professor of Theology at Loma Linda University’s School of Religion

Maybe we should just speak for ourselves?

Edit: Spectrum didn’t like what I said in this post, so they edited it to make it more pleasing to them. Apparently Marshall McLuhan has dangerous ideas? And I wasn’t supposed to suggest this situation is volatile and could be made worse? A lot of people will get hurt if this turns into a free for all. Is it permitted to say that?


Someone should nail this on the GC door.


Megalomania in Silver Springs
1.Am I the only one that wonders whether the Adventist ‘supreme leader’ has ‘lost it’? There is a picture in the Adventist Review of Ted Wilson and the crowd waiving the book Education as they all pray. This is reminiscent of Chairman Mao and the little Red Book.

2.I sense many Adventists feel that their Church has been stolen from them. This current fundamentalist leadership has cheated them. Their ‘draconian’ ‘avenging angel’ tactics to purify the Church is so foreign from the Jesus way. The fundamentalists are steeped in OT imagery of cleansing and violence.

3.Why does the General Conference Executive Committee cower to one man’s agenda? Why have they given all power to one man? I cannot believe they are all deluded.

4.So does God care? I think He cares about the faithful ‘little people’. As for this leadership I can only hope they are low on His agenda.

5.I have suggested Ted Wilson and his ‘inner circle’ reflect on the life of Savonarola. If that is too tedious then they should watch Nicolae Ceaușescu of Roumania last speech of 12/21/1989. He finally experienced fear. God may not intervene but sometimes the ‘little people’ have enough. Best wishes, Edgar


Courageous! We need more people like you! I find it very comforting that God’s understanding of grace is very different of the GC’s understanding of it.
But may be not all of them agree. If not,I think it is time to stand up and speak out if you belong to the GC. Don’t be part of a group of blind leaders. If you really believe that the Triune God is a hierarchy, your faith is actually outside of the christian faith. If you believe God has called Ellen White, the headship theory is wrong, or is God acting against his own principle?


Man, you really have been duped by the feminists and the LGBT++ lobby. Why does the Bible only use male pronouns concerning the Father and the Holy Spirit? And what is a father if not male?

To think that these people want to shape the church when they can’t even see something as simple as this!


So God the Father has male genitalia and/or only male attributes? And then there is this:

“So God created human beings in his own image. In the image of God he created them; male and female he created them.” Genesis 1:27

“God is not a human being, that he should lie, or a mortal, that he should change his mind.” Numbers 23:19

“Since you saw no form when the Lord spoke to you at Horeb out of the fire, take care and watch yourselves closely, so that you do not act corruptly by making an idol for yourselves, in the form of any figure—the likeness of male or female.” Deuteronomy 4:15-16


Absolutely brilliant!! It takes a fearless Viking willing to venture into new and unknown territory. If we could only nominate Sigve for our next G.C. President. How many here would cast their vote for Sigve?


I’m not sure that it’s ever a good idea to call out the hubris of someone and then proceed to speak as if one’s own point of view is the voice of God, but I did want to suggest the addition of two items to the “I believe” list:

I believe in women’s ordination because, when Mary shirked her womanly role in the kitchen, she left Martha alone to handle those tasks and then she assumed a seat with the other disciples, all of them male, at the feet of Jesus. When Martha became appalled and then called Mary to task, Jesus defended her and proclaimed that, in joining the men at his feet, Mary had made the “better” choice.

I believe in women’s ordination because my understanding is that ordination in any and every protestant church must only describe a “setting apart for service” and must never include the setting of one human being in a position of authority over another. If I understood ordination to be the placing of one human being above another, then I would most definitely be opposed to ordination as a sacrament altogether as defiant of the headship of Christ alone.

We must always remember that Jesus intended to teach his disciples many more things, but that they were unable to bear those teachings at that time. May God’s Spirit add to His teachings at this time.


A. The Cloud that followed the Israelites for 40 years WAS AND IS called by a FEMALE FORM OF THE NAME. It Sat on the Mercy Seat between the Two Angels for 40 Years. Every time they Spoke Its Name, they used the FEMININE VOICE OF THE WORD.
Yes! This God was FEMININE – FEMALE.

B. Wisdom is another FEMALE FORM OF THE WORD and Referring to God.

C. This FEMALE GOD is the God who gave the 10 Commandments and spoke to Israel and to Moses.

EFCEE-- Regarding Martha. Recall what Martha said at her brother’s tomb to Christ.
I heard a comment about Martha in a sermon. It said Martha was a MULTI-TASKER. She could work AND listen at the same time.
Mary wasnt MATURE enough to Multi-Task. She could ONLY do one thing at a time.

EDIT [10/12]. Pierre.
Regarding the Cloud that SAT in the Most Holy Place for 40 years being FEMALE.
In the current Book of Common Prayer of Conservative Jews and in their Torah Readings for the year, these make a POINT that the Name used is Feminine [and not male].
Which seems to me that it IS important to VIEW the OT God as FEMALE. At least for Jews.
Christians, like us, can PICK AND CHOOSE.


Dear Wormwood,

Ha! See how they argue and fight! At each other’s throats! See how we have divided them! We nearly have them! It won’t take long now.

Yes, I know that Paul says to submit to the authorities (Titus 3:1), and to submit to one another (Eph 5:21), but they are all taking the chief’s role now! Paul even says for slaves to respect their masters (I Tim 6:1), but these folks will submit to no one!! No need to submit, when you are right! Right?! Ha!

Your suggestions were brilliant. Get the two cultures, West and East to proclaiming that they are the ones in the right. Ah, see how it is impossible to work with ones who are utterly convinced of their own righteousness. No need for repentance here! I am even astounded at the blinders that such righteousness gives! Ha! But now that they all think they are right and no one will step down, disaster looms! Wonderful! Even at this late hour there is reason for hope! Kudos to you, Wormwood.

A year of “Grace”?! Ha! I know that we can do with that grace. It is just another year of turmoil and strife. AND IN THE END, NO ONE WILL BACK DOWN!!! How could it get any better?? Now I can go for that kind of GRACE! Can’t you?? Ha!

And I love, adore, wonder at the attitude toward, who is it, you know the guy at the top? Oh yeah, Ted. Titus says (chapter 3:2) to slander no one, and to show humility toward all men, but see how they treat him!! Ha! Like a dupe!! What a joke! No Slander?? Right!! Are you kidding?? Ha!!

When you get back down here, there will a promotion waiting. Mephistopheles has not been doing that well lately, so I might just have to do a bit of shuffling. Don’t tell.

Most appreciable yours,



For the same reason as in KJV Exodus 20:18 “And all the people saw the thunderings, and the lightnings, and the noise of the trumpet…” When you begin to see thunderings and noise, brother it’s time for you consult with a mental health professional. You’ve been “duped” by the literalists as someone has been known to say.


In the Oct. 8 issue of The Economist, in the news briefs in the political section (p. 8), was the following item:

"Tibet’s newly appointed Communist Party chief said the region must ‘deepen the struggle’ against the Dalai Lama’s influence there. Doing so, he said, was the region’s ‘highest priority’ in its efforts to forge ‘ethnic unity’."

One only has to substitute a few names and words and this could describe recent events in our church. All for “unity”.


I strongly agree with this, efcee. We must always keep our eyes open to present truth.


Well I guess its official. We always thought the leftist theologians and their followers thought they spoke for GOD.

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Isn’t the Devil also a man? Or is he a she like in some Holywood movies?


Thank you Sirgve. I do not think ANYONE knows the true origin of gender. If God is male , as we perceive gender then there must also have been a Female “principle” at the very beginning of of the existence of the Elohim.Humans do not know much about the origins of the so-called universe even though astronomers claim to be able to trace its extent to about 14 billion light years. What we don’t know we call infinity. We KNOW that our galaxy is on a death watch.It is on a collision course with the Andromeda galaxy and this will happen in about 3 billion years time. Long before that event , ordination of females , or not, will be among the very least of our human concerns.We shall have to move to another galactic home faaar away. Will “heaven” as presently located have to relocate too? Males were made to WORK and apparently females were a supporting principle , fill in the blanks. The frightening surmise is that man was not made to survive for the long term. The species was BARREN. It was apparently reproduced by CLONING. After the Gods (Elohim) left the planet and went back to “heaven” their home planet mankind would gradually die out. There is no record of offspring during the sojourn on the Steppes of the Edin(Garden of Eden).It seems that apart from the decision of God to create a being similar to the Elohim,(NOT as a lower animal, with some slight advancement) the others only agreed if an undertaking was given that mankind would eventually die out. The “snake” the leading Elohim geneticist who led the creation of man project broke this agreement (with the secret agreement of Yahweh), and caused the Adam to fall into a deep sleep(anesthetized) and performed the operation which enabled the EVE (also anesthetized) to be fecund. NOW , on being expelled from the presence of the Elohim the humans had to make their own way and God guided them with advice and such moral principles as they could understand. FEMALES had the superior role in the they carried the foetuses and provided the nurture and care without which our species would have long been extinct. Cain apparently even took a wife from on of the seven cities of the Elohim cities then existing on earth. FURTHERMORE , our creators activated the principle of LOVE, ROMANCE and AFFECTION all of which made males prize females almost more than life itself. AMEN!!! The" Defeat of Women" much later was a disgrace in gender relations, but I am thankful that this matter is even causing such ferment in the Church, since I regard this as the final throes of Gender Supremacy.


[quote=“intrinsa, post:22, topic:12064, full:true”] …but I am thankful that this matter is even causing such ferment in the Church, since I regard this as the final throes of Gender Supremacy.
Love that line-I’ve often considered that the history of mankind is instructive regarding the character of God-and while we continue to either elevate one gender (yes, man HAS worshiped woman, just consider some presidents and hopefuls and you’ll see that still played out) or demean a gender (which, despite only a century since legal protections affording voting, title, office, property owning rights) we are NOT a reliable testimony. To lower Jesus “below God” in order to establish man as “over woman” is to horribly dishonor both.

As an aside, does anyone else view risible the concept that God would create a being “lower than man” in order to share creation (procreation) and propagate the species?
Really, can you imagine this pre-Genesis conversation?
GOD (speaking to the Spirit and the Son): "Lets conjugate this Ruddy man with this inferior being in order to propagate (even his “elevated male”) progeny…and we will perform spiritual female infanticide on the other ones.
leads me to add one more to Dr Tonstads list.

I believe in womens ordination because I believe God did not create an inferior being in order to propagate His beloved children.