Pacific Union Officials Decline Inclusion in SDA Yearbook; Stand in Solidarity with President Sandra Roberts

(George Tichy) #189

Well Cass, any Jesuit can certainly decode it… LOL

(George Tichy) #190

Regarding the original issue addressed by this article, does anyone know what actually happened? Were those officials actually able to have their names withdrawn from the Yearbook?

(reliquum) #191

Greg, Unions were expressly designed to represent the constituents in the pews-as such they are neither beholden to nor “part of” the GC as some “powerless extension”.

This is not a moot point, it is to keep adventism a grass roots, power-up institution, and not a hierarchical romanist power-down.

Interesting that a 7-times ordained woman (see her credentials-they are not a shell game) designed that.

(reliquum) #192

Umm, perhaps it is a Jewish sentence, and needfully, umm, circumsized…

(reliquum) #193

Greg, the obsession with genitalia has a long and storied, even biblical history.
Male headship demands it. Unfortunately, holy writ is significantly mute on the point you make much ado about. If we are to demand our church administrators must follow the OT/priestly template, then we have a whole bunch more of clear edicts requiring racial, gender, marital specifics. You are somewhat duplicitous when you are silent on those attendant standards.

Furhtermore, scripture is pretty clear that the upward power in the pews is not to be stifled by a top-down hierarchical force. The circumcision issue in the growth of the NT church stands as perhaps an ensample, a template as to how we should accommodate non-discriminatory co-ordination in regions (conferences?) where it is deemed important.

Otherwise, just watch male headship heresy make impotent the gospel of Jesus within our whole faith community. There is much wisdom in scripture-the meta-message (which persists despite translation-otherwise we would needfully demand that all readers only read the original language manuscripts) of all scripture seems to impress me with the idea that God is no respecter of person, or gender, or race, or politics, or culture etc etc.

The woman who escaped to the wilderness to give birth to her daughter is now faced with watching her daughter get aborted by the church! Talk about the lack of Solomonic wisdom.
I can imagine God asking “what have you done to my sons bride” at tjat last trump, and in unison the male headshippers stand up erect and proud, high handedly declaring “we killed her for YOU”…right here where YOU asked us to.

No, woman was not made for the dust, under the heel of Adam.
Any such claim does horrible violence to the God named LOVE.

(Tim Teichman) #194

(George Tichy) #195

It is so unfortunate that some people try so hard to learn about the Adventist system, but fail. Like, for example, if someone says,

it is so sad, but it reveals lack of knowledge. The Unions were created specifically to be like filters, to make sure that the GC will not abuse its power. Anyone who learned SDA history knows that. Therefore:

  1. Unions have their own rights. They have their own constituency. The are not governed by the GC, they are the ones in charge of nullifying eventual abuses by the GC (like those we see at this very moment in time). No wonder the GC would like to make them “missions”…

  2. Unions are NOT extensions of the GC. Maybe Greg is new in Adventism and doesn’t know yet that it’s the Divisions that are extensions of the GC. Not Unions.

Ah…, it becomes even tiring having to teach this SDA Basics 101 class over and over again, isn’t it?.. :innocent:

(George Tichy) #196

I am glad you stopped talking to yourself. I was about to mail you my business card, with a 50% discount coupon… :slight_smile:

(Tim Teichman) #197

“certainly! As soon as you provide scripture that allows female priests in the OT and female spiritual headship in the NT. yawnnnnn…”


"Galatians 3:23 Before the coming of this faith, we were held in custody under the law, locked up until the faith that was to come would be revealed. 24 So the law was our guardian until Christ came that we might be justified by faith. 25 Now that this faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian.

26 So in Christ Jesus you are all children of God through faith, 27 for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise."

So, in Jesus, the old ways are done and we are all the same before Him. There is no caste system of any type among the believers.

Judges 4:4 Now Deborah, a prophet [alt. leader], the wife of Lappidoth, was leading Israel at that time. 5 She held court under the Palm of Deborah between Ramah and Bethel in the hill country of Ephraim, and the Israelites went up to her to have their disputes decided. 6 She sent for Barak son of Abinoam from Kedesh in Naphtali and [she] said to him, “The Lord, the God of Israel, commands you: ‘Go, take with you ten thousand men of Naphtali and Zebulun and lead them up to Mount Tabor. 7 I will lead Sisera, the commander of Jabin’s army, with his chariots and his troops to the Kishon River and give him into your hands.’”

Deborah was the leader of Israel. The leader of Israel was the political and spiritual leader, quite literally because there was no distinction between church and state, and she commanded the armies and relayed God’s word directly to men.

2 Kings 22:8 Hilkiah the high priest said to Shaphan the secretary, “I have found the Book of the Law in the temple of the Lord.” [found the Pentateuch, the beginning of scripture] He gave it to Shaphan, who read it. 9 Then Shaphan the secretary went to the king and reported to him: … 10 Then Shaphan the secretary informed the king, “Hilkiah the priest has given me a book.” And Shaphan read from it in the presence of the king.

11 When the king heard the words of the Book of the Law, he tore his robes. 12 He gave these orders … 3 “Go and inquire of the Lord for me and for the people and for all Judah about what is written in this book that has been found. Great is the Lord’s anger that burns against us because those who have gone before us have not obeyed the words of this book; they have not acted in accordance with all that is written there concerning us.”

14 Hilkiah the priest, Ahikam, Akbor, Shaphan and Asaiah went to speak to the prophet Huldah, who was the wife of Shallum son of Tikvah, the son of Harhas, keeper of the wardrobe. She lived in Jerusalem, in the New Quarter.

15 She said to them, “This is what the Lord, the God of Israel, says: Tell the man who sent you to me, 16 ‘This is what the Lord says: I am going to bring disaster on this place and its people, according to everything written in the book the king of Judah has read. … Tell the king of Judah, who sent you to inquire of the Lord, ‘This is what the Lord, the God of Israel, says concerning the words you heard: 19 Because your heart was responsive and you humbled yourself before the Lord …Therefore I will gather you to your ancestors, and you will be buried in peace. Your eyes will not see all the disaster I am going to bring on this place.’”

So a woman is sought out by the priests as an authority and she verifies for the male King that the newly found scripture is the authentic word of God, and that his reaction to it is valid before God, and so he will die in peace. She relays to the male priests the current will of God and they and the king and all of Judah change course as a result, adopting the Pentateuch as authoritative scripture

Romans 16:7: Greet Andronicus and Junia, my fellow Jews who have been in prison with me. They are outstanding among the apostles, and they were in Christ before I was.

Junia was an apostle. And apostles traveled from city to city and taught the Gospel of Jesus and converted people to be Jesus followers. Junia was an apostle and was so before Paul was.

The fourth-century bishop of Constantinople, John Chrysostom, wrote of Junia, “To be an apostle is something great. But to be outstanding among the apostles—just think what a wonderful song of praise that is! . . . Indeed how great the wisdom of this woman must have been that she was even deemed worthy of the title of apostle”
Quote from:

(Tim Teichman) #198

I think it’s very normal to talk to oneself (literally it is based on brain research.) It’s when you start arguing and then get in a fight and get really mad that you may have an issue. Maybe.

(George Tichy) #199

It becomes really bad when you are fighting yourself… and you lose the debate!
(80% discount for these cases!.. LOL)

By the way, don’t add more Scriptural evidence to the list you provided about “female spiritual headship.” It may become so overwhelmingly disturbing to the discriminators that @elmer_cupino may end up with way too many patients to see on an emergency basis… :wink:


We’re not talking about WO, remember?

(George Tichy) #201

The motivation (sick psychological need) behind domestic violence and discrimination of women in church is the same: Power & Control issues. Nothing else.

Everything else that is said is just a disguising mask, to hide the real problem behind a curtain that sometimes looks “spiritual” but is actually nothing but a mere beautiful statement :sunglasses: with no honest or concrete content.


Adventist Orwellian Newspeak Dictionary (a work in progress):

  1. The Biblical Order of Gender Authority
  2. Spiritual Male Headship
  3. Female Spiritual Headship
Many cults actually create their own words and languages which they use to psychologically condition their adherents in their beliefs and doctrines. Cult leaders strive to control the communication environment of their followers. They censor the literature their followers read, deliver speeches that only contain and reinforce the cultic terminology, and attempt to filter out words their followers may hear from external sources so they will become immersed in the cultic vocabulary.

How Playing Good Christian Housewife Almost Killed Me

Our Christian sect encouraged a mindset in which dad was supreme patriarch. It led to extreme emotional abuse.

“So,” the woman at the domestic violence shelter asked me, “if he’s such a great, loving husband and father, what are you doing here? Why do you need a protection order?”

I tried to explain that, for some reason, despite how hard we were both trying to live according to Christian principles, our home had become an oppressive, miserable place in which none of us were happy, and it felt like we were all losing our minds.

The problem was, everything I knew about relationships had been so completely redefined by Christian teachings that I did not have the language to name the abuse.


So I went to therapy. One of the first things Deb, my counselor, showed me was a “Power and Control Wheel” which is a tool for helping abuse victims identify ways in which they are being manipulated, exploited, mistreated and enslaved.

As Deb went over each aspect of the Power & Control wheel, I began to realize that, yes, of course, all of these elements were present in my marriage … it’s just that we had different names for these things … we had chapter and verse to teach us that power and control is actually good and godly. We called it “Agape Love” - it’s the kind of love which God has for His creation …this was the relationship we were supposed to use as our model between husband and wife.


As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

—II Peter 3:16


I agree. They’re fooling themselves and others, but that’s all it is, narcissistic abuse. That’s why I posted the Power and Control Wheel graphic in my post above.


Yes, exactly, George.

Look at Bill “Headship” Gothard’s stubborn refusal to take responsibility: even when he has one foot on a banana peel and the other in the grave, he’s threatening to sue:

Statement from Recovering Grace regarding the lawsuit against Bill Gothard and IBLP

28 March 2018, 01:30

On February 26, 2018, the former plaintiffs in the lawsuit against Bill Gothard and the Institute in Basic Life Principles released the following joint statement:

Due to the unique complexities of this case, including the statutes of limitation, we have made the difficult decision to voluntarily dismiss our lawsuit against Bill Gothard and The Institute in Basic Life Principles. We want to make it abundantly clear that by dismissing our lawsuit at this time, we are not recanting our experiences or dismissing the incalculable damage that we believe Gothard has done by his actions and certain teachings. Nor are we disregarding that his organization chose to protect themselves instead of those under their care.

Shortly after the release of this statement, Bill Gothard went on a verbal offensive against the former plaintiffs and against Recovering Grace, releasing statements through both his Facebook page and a website run by a self-described paid member of his legal team. One of these statements exposes private medical and deeply personal family information about a former plaintiff who released a personal statement after the case was dropped—information gleaned by Gothard’s legal team as part of the discovery phase of the lawsuit and by Gothard personally during counseling sessions with the plaintiff several years earlier.

In the wake of the lawsuit dismissal, we have received reports that Bill Gothard and his team have attempted multiple contacts with former plaintiffs, their family members, and their friends in order to pursue “reconciliation” on his terms. There are also reports that he has threatened further legal action against the plaintiffs if they refuse to meet with him and if they continue to speak out. Additionally, the aforementioned self-described member of Gothard’s legal team has contacted Recovering Grace, hinting at legal action if we post or share anything else on our Facebook page and, presumably, on our website.

Power and Control.

False shepherds have their portion.

Evil: Ancient and Modern
Why We Will Aways Have Segregated Conferences
(Greg Cox) #205

I asked you first, show us in scripture where female spiritual headship is located?

(Tim Teichman) #206

I did for him:

(Elmer Cupino) #207

Please review my posts. I said there are no bible texts supporting male or female headships. Now tell me your supporting bible texts that require no mental acrobats, contortions or gymnastics. Please!

(Greg Cox) #208

Brother - I asked for scripture on female spiritual headship - you provided personal commentary;

All are one: Did you bother to invent a time machine and go back and tell Paul this? Perhaps he can use your superior intellect.

Deborah: she was not over the priests, was she.

Huldah: she was not over the priests, was she.

NT: there are 6 examples of females being called “deacon” by Paul, but none of them was head over a church or spiritual community. And you know this.

You are trying to draw examples of these holy women’s actions that simply is not there. There has NEVER been a female spiritual headship position in ancient israel or the early church.