Perfection Without a Mediator (The Good News)

[Ralph_Seland]

@elmer_cupino

For all purposes the SDA church has equated EGW with the Bible. There is nothing in the bible that is not in EGW. So why read the Bible?

OK, I’ll bite. There are no long genealogies in EGW.

On a serious side, Adventism puts tradition first, as ably noted in the article Adventism at the Crossroads. Next come EGW writings, and lastly comes the Bible–if we happen to get time to read it. This is not what Ellen White recommended.

I feel that the 1919 conference screwed up when the attendees were too divided to take a positive stand on the inspiration of her writings. We have paid dearly for that error.

The Bible is the Word of God and it has power that we really don’t understand. If a person doesn’t know where to start, I suggest reading the book of John first and then branch out from there.

[Ralph_Seland]

@GeorgeTichy

Last Generation Trap?..

Last Generation Theology.

[frank_merendino (Frankmer7)]

I get that the author of this article is an older Adventist, having grown up with that generation’s degree of authority attributed to the writings of EGW. He solved his theological and experiential problems from carefully reading her and her literary team’s output in GC. I respect his experience for what it is.

With that said, this is also the problem with this article. It tries to do biblical theology from EGW. It understands the gospel through EGW. Biblical theology needs to be done from the Bible directly, through the lens of the gospel of Jesus the messiah and the kingdom of God. To start and end with EGW as the way out of theological aberration, is to simply skew the whole picture. What she wrote, like anyone else, needs to be held to the scrutiny of the gospel.

Much of what she wrote in balance about perfection and its ties to eschatology simply comes from a culturally conditioned view of the gospel from the reformation, pietism, Adventist apocalyptic preoccupation, and the holiness movement of the 19thc., all rolled together. It’s a distortion of the NT. Honestly, it can be read to be understood for what it is, but ultimately it needs to be left off to the side.

Again, her theology needs to be held up to the gospel and the scriptural story, rather than the gospel and the scriptural narrative being understood through her. A backwards lens leads to a backwards view and backwards conclusions. Many have been damaged by just this thing.

Thanks…

Frank

[GeorgeTichy]

LOL. I actually knew that. We had Kevin Paulson here in the past selling his fish for a long time. We had gigantic “interactions” because, among others, I was always a ferocious () opponent of that perilous heresy. Kevin tried for years, but then it seems that he “lost it” with someone and committed some fatal crime (violation of the rules) and ended up being suspended. For a thousand years I believe…

[llemans]

@Ralph_Seland

We will never become perfect in the way we think of perfection. What we are really talking about is the influence that LGT, as taught by M. L. Andreasen has had on our church.

It really is stunning how Andreasen still has such an outsized influence on so much SDA culture, when he died with his ministerial credentials revoked. You so much as say “Ford” and people get their hands in the air. But somehow, Andreasen’s teachings get a pass. Maybe the church should have never posthumously restored those credentials.

You ought to be able to look back, and see all the progress you’ve made in your walk. But LGT denies you the joy of growth, because only the Ultra Final End Goal matters, which is be exactly like God. No matter how much you learn or grow, God is infinite, until you realize you’re never going to measure up.

All it does is rob too many of its adherents of any assurance of salvation. (And in many cases, replace it with the assurance of damnation, but that’s a whole other story.)

[Ralph_Seland]

@llemans

It really is stunning how Andreasen still has such an outsized influence on so much SDA culture

I was a babe in the woods until I scanned Questions on Doctrine, and put it on At Issue while Bille Burdick was still around. You would have thought that I had dropped a bomb. I learned a lot about Adventist politics real fast.

I don’t think the younger generation has a clue on why we have separate schools and institutions. I am amazed that I am still a loyal church member.

[ABEN (Christopher)]

@spectrumbot

In my opinion her writings have been misunderstood.

The chief cause for all the misunderstanding, confusion, contradictions – was, and is, Ellen White herself. Her writings from 1844 to 1915 have been replete with these things. The teaching that God’s people would have to live without a mediator after the probation has no Scriptural foundation, its based on her speculation and imagination. We should leave it alone.

[ABEN (Christopher)]

@spectrumbot

Those who were raised from the dead at the time of Jesus’ resurrection were perfect reflections of Jesus. Enoch, Moses, and Elijah are perfect reflections. If not, how can they be allowed to enter heaven, but we be denied?

There is no record in the bible of any saint to have attained absolute perfection in this life, but they have been made perfect before their translation (Enoch, Moses, Elijah and those resurrected with Jesus) as was foretold would happen for the redeemed at the second coming,-- they will be made perfect.

[ABEN (Christopher)]

@spectrumbot

“The religious services, the prayers, the praise, the penitent confession of sin, ascend from true believers as incense to the heavenly sanctuary: but passing through the corrupt channels of humanity, they are so defiled that unless purified by blood, they can never be of value with God… All incense from earthly tabernacles must be moist with the cleansing drops of the blood of Christ. He holds before the Father the censer of His own merits, in which there is no taint of earthly corruption. He gathers into this censer the prayers, the praise, and the confessions of His people, and with these He puts His own spotless righteousness. Then, perfumed with the merits of Christ’s propitiation, the incense comes up before God wholly and entirely acceptable…O, that all may see that everything in obedience, in penitence, in praise and thanksgiving must be placed upon the glowing fire of the righteousness of Christ” (God’s Amazing Grace by Ellen White, pg. 154).

The whole passage above, was plagiarised from Sermons by Henry Melvill, 1833, pp. 52, 53. Here is the original copy of this book I own:

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=NJ1hAAAAcAAJ&printsec=frontcover&vq=corrupt+channels&source=gbs_ge_summary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q&f=false

[frank_merendino (Frankmer7)]

Moses and Elijah we’re translated because they were perfect reflections of Jesus? The writer still believes perfectionism.

A few weeks before Elijah was taken up, he was running in fear from Jezebel, claiming no one else stood for God but him, and asking God to take his life. His character perfection and perfect reflection must have occurred in a very tight window.

Moses was busy becoming enraged over Israel’s recalcitrance, and not listening to YHWH’s direction. He was kept out of the promised land because of it. He died not long after. I guess the Torah in between the lines reveals his character development to a perfect reflection of Jesus, because it’s nowhere to be found in its text.

The whole paradigm of individual character reflection and an individual perfect reflection of Jesus as required for salvation is just a horrible misreading not only of the Bible as a whole, but specifically of the NT. Salvation is experienced and entered into individually, but is also experienced by entering into the community of faith… God’s diverse and united new creation in Christ, and energized by his Spirit. This is how salvation is portrayed in the NT, becoming part of the Jesus movement… God is saving a people, not just disconnected individuals.

Thus, the ethical instructions of the NT, especially the letters, while applying to individuals, are addressed to communities/churches. Local, collective manifestations of this Jesus movement. The instructions are overwhelmingly relational in nature. The phrase one another is the most prevalent within them. Love one another, bear one another’s burdens, encourage one another, teach one another, forgive one another, accept one another as God in Christ has accepted you. These are relationally dynamic. They can be applied a thousand different ways in a thousand situations. This implies continual openness to the Spirit, the need for wisdom and discernment, constant growth in such, and constant learning which implies the making of mistakes, the need for forgiveness, etc.

This is healthy relational spiritual life. Life together. This life together is to be the reflection of God and of his image into the world. Not just the efforts of a bunch of disconnected individuals who claim personal salvation in Christ. To then impose some kind of individual perfect static reflection of a static Jesus upon this as the requirement for salvation, and in disregard of the fluid, relational, and growing dynamic of this type of life together that God is after through his Spirit, simply misses the point. It is a modern, individualist misreading of the gospel, salvation, and biblical life in the Spirit.

Thanks…

Frank

[GeorgeTichy]

@Ralph_Seland

I am amazed that I am still a loyal church member.

Until age 30, I was a loyal Denomination member. Then, 40 years ago, when the GV bomb was detonated, I became just a member loyal to a local church.

So far so good. Nobody from the upstairs, you know, those black suited guys…, has ever bothered me. After all, the only thing they care about me is tithes and offerings, and since they are not getting any of that… they couldn’t care less, right?

[GeorgeTichy]

Perfectionism is one of the worst lies, if not the worst one, that can be taught to people interested in the Christian faith. It is as heretical as it could be, a totally fake doctrine. Yes, “it is what it is” …

I can’t imagine the frustration that the believers in perfectionism must experience. First being converted with a promise that they can attain perfection, but then NEVER being able to get there since the destination promised is actually inaccessible. Don’t they become discouraged after a while and end up abandoning ship? Yes they do!

I am thinking about the thousands of youth who have been targeted by the LGT gang within our Church, and have actually believed those impostors. What will probably be the fate of those kids when they finally realize that they have been intentionally deceived and mislead?

The obvious remains being the obvious! What could be expected different if the very GC President is a LGTarian himself?*

*In his Saturday morning sermon during the AC-18, Ted Wilson clearly declared his belief in LGT/Perfectionism. Anyone can, and should, check it out.

[2humBaby (C. Evans)]

He has been saying that for a number of years. I left the SDA church over WO and it has been a blessing because I can still embrace some theological points and reject others.

[elmer_cupino]

@2humBaby

I left the SDA church over WO and it has been a blessing because I can still embrace some theological points and reject others.

Good for you. You had the strength to carry on while a faculty at PUC. George @GeorgeTichy and I didn’t have to put up with the church’s shenanigans. We just reject outright what we believe are the results of mental gymnastics and calisthenics. I continue with the church for the fellowship and have been equally blessed. Come join us at the RBLSS this sabbath. If you are interested let us know and we will email instructions how to login.

[JohnCarson (Johnny Carson)]

@spectrumbot

“When the character of Christ shall be perfectly reproduced in His people, then He will come to claim them as His own” ( Christ’s Object Lessons, p. 69).

@spectrumbot

There are those who believe that this last generation finally becomes so victorious that they are absolutely perfect and worthy of translation.

The mistake, of course, is in applying any weight at all to the words of a false prophet. Once we’ve got that understanding out of the way the rest is easier.

[JohnCarson (Johnny Carson)]

@GeorgeTichy

I am thinking about the thousands of youth who have been targeted by the LGT gang within our Church, and have actually believed those impostors. What will probably be the fate of those kids when they finally realize that they have been intentionally deceived and mislead?

It is my firm belief that God is the great equalizer. He sees the deceptions foisted upon the vulnerability of youth and knows how to balance things out. As Christ said in the Gospels, It would be better to have a millstone tied around your neck and be thrown into the depths of the sea.

[2humBaby (C. Evans)]

Very interested yes give me directions. Thank you Actually we watch LL church service so I’m sure it’s on their menu but I will still like the directions

[Harry_Elliott]

Cristopher, what a find! Another case of her finding something colorful written by a true author and pretending to have been shown it in vision.

I wonder if Melville ever found out about his contribution to the famous Adventist doctrine of a literal heavenly sanctuary.

[GeorgeTichy]

@Harry_Elliott

I wonder if Melville ever found out about

Don’t tell him… , we may end up with TWO people claiming prophetic gift…

[ABEN (Christopher)]

@GeorgeTichy

we may end up with TWO people claiming prophetic gift

George, Ellen never allowed any one that special gift, as she believed herself to be the sole possessor of that gift. Even the church would not. However, Author L. White at least admitted John Milton was inspired!
“In my own thinking I am of the opinion that John Milton was favoured with a clear revelation of the fall of man” (Arthur L. White, Secretary, Ellen G. White Publications, February 25, 1953).