Harry, I have two books by Melvill: sermons by melvill, 1833 &1836 in one volume containing 18 sermons; and 1844 edition which contains all his 55 famous sermons. She copied from 1844 ed. Of the 55 sermons I found her parallels to 48 of Melvill’s sermons. She used some of his sermons to counsel, rebuke, as testimonies. (some of her recipients, – her children, Uriah Smith, D. M. Canright, J. H. Kellogg, personal and the church in general). Her doctrine of the human nature of Christ comes from this author.
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I’ve been watching the LL church services during the virus outbreak. I’m a week behind because I’m in Australia and like to watch on Saturday when LL is still in Friday time.
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No-one has picked up on the fact that this article assumes that the Time of Trouble is really going to happen. It’s a mighty big assumption. Borrowing stories randomly from the Old Testament, then arranging them into a sequence and casting them into an eschatological setting is creative theology but not necessarily one that has valid expectations. It’s also a very safe theology to invent because no-one can gainsay it. It’s extremely speculative. The author has apparently spent his entire life teaching people how to speculate about the future, including the fantasy of reaching moral; perfection. So sad.
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Time of trouble is Biblical according to Daniel 12:1.
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That depends on how, “At that time…” at the beginning of 12:1 is interpreted in the context of Chap. 11, and who the king of the south and north are. That can lead to some significantly different conclusions about the time of distress spoken about in the rest of 12:1. We are now talking about interpretive and hermeneutical lenses, which go beyond pulling one verse out of context, and building an entire theology/eschatology out of it.
Thanks…
Frank
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Just about all of our peculiar doctrines are speculative. A day equals a year? Why not a day equals two years? Or a day equals a month? Or a day equals a day!
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Oops, sorry if I poured gas on the flames, by referring to a Bible verse. The king of the north and the king of the south were a big deal at the 1919 conference and I guess they are still with us.
Although I know that I am out of step with most writers, I am hesitant to poo-poo unfulfilled prophecy. Only time will tell and I am willing to wait without scoffing.
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It’s not about scoffing, nor is it about demeaning the Bible. It’s about taking the Bible seriously within its context, to whom it was written, when, and why. You pulled out Daniel 12:1 from that context to support a future, world wide time of trouble. That’s the Adventist interpretation. In the flow of the context of Daniel, there are other ways of interpreting that text.
The problem is that Adventism marginalizes all of that as counter reformation heresy. I think it’s actually solid interpretation, as opposed to our historicist, proof text, year for a day eschatology.
Frank
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Sorry if I did not make myself clear. I was talking about what Ellen White says about the time of the end.
Thanks. But, that also brings up the question, is what EGW says about the time of the end/time of trouble to be taken as the last word on the biblical text, or are we to try to study and understand the text for ourselves?
Frank
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If I not mistaken Dr David Bissell was at Andrews when I attended from '61 to’65. Living in Collegedale TN he must know Dr Tim Jennings and his “Come and Reason” ministry which is based in Collegedale. If Dr Bissell is familiar with Dr Jennings he would be acquainted with his 7 levels of moral decision making. Dr Jenning’s main thesis is that the physical universe is governed by the laws of physics which most of us are not aware of Einstein developed his equations of general relativity which accurately describe the dynamics of the universe which today the most tested thesis in physics. Dr Jennings maintains there are just as precise laws of design for humanity. The point is that just like violating physical laws, there are physical consequences, so if you violate God’s design laws for human relationships and with Him there are "natural " consequences for living outside of His design protocol. For example You should always tell the truth Do not bear false witness. This principle is violated regularly by everyone and look at the consequences around you. It is a "natural outcome " of broken relationships and mistrust The key understanding is God’s design laws are based on His main attribute of love which is accompanied by trust and freedom of choice. His love for humanity is never compromised and is not subject to our behaviour or our choices. That is a design law of His making. God’s design law for humanity does not operate like human imperial law where violation requires punishment for misbehaving. The problem as Jennings sees is that we assume that God is like an imperial judge rendering judgment like an earthly magistrate. That is the kind of misrepresentation that most Christians labour under. It is a Satanic lie that the world has bought into. There is no such thing as “tough love” in God’s design law. Jesus was not a sacrificial lamb to somehow appease Himself. His death demonstrates His love ,not to satisfy some need to punish. To me, that is too pagan. I think it would be well for us to discover the hidden design laws that are woven into the fabric of life.to optimize our relationships with our families and neighbours Worrying about whether one is fit for translation is seeing a God like an earthly judge. I think in the final analysis it will be up to you to accept the invitation to His new “home” God will not violate your liberty and while He desires for all to choose eternity clearly many will not
Dave Okamura
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You don’t need to feel/say that Ralph. There are not two people here (or elsewhere) that understand things the same way. Just presenting your views will not do any harm. Everyone is entitled to their views and opinions, and be respected. There are very few things in religion that are black and white. Most are neither.
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My study as a pastor le
I suggest Ralph read the entire chapter of Daniel 12 rather than picking out one phrase and using the Futurist method to cast it into our future. He should notice that it is addressed to “thy people.” That’s certainly Daniel’s people, the Hebrews. It’s not applicable to the whole world population. And the time of trouble for the Hebrews comes after the daily is taken away. When did the daily sacrifice in the Temple get taken away? Then you can start counting 1290 and 1335 days or whatever you interpret those to be. There’s plenty of room here for some creative formulas and wild
speculation. It seems to me that the time of trouble for the Hebrews, from Daniel’s viewpoint, was way off in the distant future and he was assured that he wasn’t to lose any sleep over it. Instead, he was assured the faithful Hebrews would experience everlasting life. There’s generally a redemptive thread in prophecy.
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The book I have displayed contains sermons two volumes, 1833 &1836 in one, which I think is no longer available. She had plagiarised all 18 sermons from this book. Here is the link for 1836 ed. which has 6 sermons.
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=BzwEAAAAQAAJ&printsec=frontcover&source=gbs_ge_summary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q&f=false
Link for 1844 ed. (55 sermons)
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=RDkPAAAAYAAJ&printsec=frontcover&source=gbs_ge_summary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q&f=false
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Ellen White taught that perfection is required before the translation, throughout her ministry, yet, at last, the realization dawned upon her that it is impossible while on earth, and so confessed:
“I do not say that I am perfect, but I am trying to be perfect . I do not expect others to be perfect ; and if I could not associate with my brothers and sisters who are not perfect, I do not know what I should do. “I try to treat the matter the best that I can, and am thankful that I have a spirit of uplifting and not a spirit of crushing down. Yes, I am going to make that appear just as much as possible. No one is perfect. If one were perfect, he would be prepared for heaven . As long as we are not perfect, we have a work to do to get ready to be perfect. We have a mighty Saviour” (PUR [Pacific Union Recorder], April 29, 1915, par. 7, 8).
This was Ellen’s conclusion!
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And the ending still sounds confused…unless she meant getting ready to be perfected when this mortal must put on immortality. Even the idea of getting ready is confused. Jesus spoke of always being ready. IOW, it was to remain in the state of following him and being about God’s business in the world…not reaching some mythical point of readiness for his coming.
Oy veh!
Frank
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Almost as if she were admitting in her dying state that what she taught about this for her whole life was just not right! But then…
Frank
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She died as a sinful human, to be transformed into His image, if judged faithful at the second coming!
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As a matter of fact, Ellen White can be included in this category.
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