Perfection Without a Mediator (The Good News)

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As I read Scripture, the time has past that we could “prevent Jesus from Coming.” At the appointed time, He will come ready or not.

Mt 23:37 “how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under [her] wings, and ye would not!”

You have a sense of humor, George.

My advise should it be desired is to go with the Bible first and then EGW. I have seen many people get into spiritual trouble reading EGW apart from the Bible, i.e., by reversing the order.

Was EGW’s comment meant to be taken literal or figuratively? An illustration from the OT makes the point that a smoking censer stopped a plague.

Nu 16:46 “And Moses said unto Aaron, Take a censer, and put fire therein from off the altar, and put on incense, and go quickly unto the congregation, and make an atonement for them: for there is wrath gone out from the LORD; the plague is begun.” Aaron with his censer eventually stood between the dead and the living.

Surprise, surprise, surprise!

The Third Angel’s message is evidence enough when rightly understood from Scripture.

Are you saying that God cannot periodically inspire people like Melvill or anyone of His choosing?
Joh 11:51 “And this spake he [Caiaphas,] not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;”

Caiaphas, was inspired even though he was wicked. And when EGW read Melvill’s statement and recognized its spiritual value, you think she should not have quoted him? And how many people of the 1800’s with a third grade education were taught that they had to give references if they copied something written by someone else?

And I’ve only read half of the comments, but it generated a book of replies… :face_with_hand_over_mouth: :face_with_hand_over_mouth: :face_with_hand_over_mouth:

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What she actually recommended:

  1. Bible along with her testimonies.
    “The Bible must be your counselor. Study it and the testimonies God has given; for they never contradict His Word” (Letter 106, 1907; 3SM, p. 32).
  2. Her writings are on an equal footing with the Bible for salvation.
    “I am instructed to say to our churches, Study the Testimonies. They are written for our admonition and encouragement upon whom the ends of the world are come . If God’s people will not study these messages that are sent to them from time to time, they are guilty of rejecting light. Line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little and there a little, God is sending instruction to His people. Heed the instruction; follow the light” (2MR, 191; Letter 292, 1907).

“Now all these things happened unto them for examples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come .” – 1 Corinthians 10:11, KJV.

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For your information, the whole book was plagiarised. Besides, Ellen White Estate had so far been able to draw parallels to 37 of Melvill’s 55 sermons, whereas, I found parallels to 48 chapters. Even among the 37 chapters they missed out numerous strong parallels! Balaam the false prophet too was inspired, Satan inspired (dictated) Thomas Paine! She was not a baby writing books! She knew what she was doing, and more so, a prophet should be honest in her dealings.

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Quite a few of them require a long time to be meditated on in order to make any sense of them. If any at all.
Keep replying Henry!

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So you say. The EGW Estates has studied the issue and found a very small amount of her writings quoting unlisted sources. If you can prove that EGW copied Melvill’s “whole book” and put her name on the finished manuscript: Contact the EGW Estates and show them the evidence with the name of her plagiarized book, etc. The subject has been studied thoroughly and the position that you just expressed did not hold up under scrutiny.

In the meantime, your implausible allegations do not merit my time.

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I feel compelled to stay engaged since you said that you “wouldn’t have much to say on this topic” in you first of your 20 posts above [poetic exaggeration is mine]. So while your parkettes inspire you to keep popping in (even though you have nothing further to say) I will continue to enjoy this thread.

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George. I like that you have your tongue firmly planted in your cheek much of the time . I enjoy that you can be a provocateur Perhaps you can outline what moral perfection looks like both from God’s perspective and from a human perspective. If God loves unconditionally, does He require humans to become morally perfect ? As a parent I worry that my kids aren’t perfect but I love them anyway Do you think God expects adults to become "perfect " or does He love us because we aren’t ? Isn’t Satan’s lie that God requires “perfection” before translation? Just wondering
Dave Okamura

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I pity your ignorance in this matter, any way, I don’t want to waste my time saying more!

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Well, at least @GeorgeTichy admits up front that his inspiration comes from Parakeets… :wink:

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I appreciate all of the research that you have done showing the many, many evidences of plagiarism.

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And you know who is going to investigate these guys, right?

Beagle Boys (8)

Surprise, surprise: These ones!!!

Three Biggle Brothers

Great, isn’t it???!!!

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David,
I I have always denounced and fought the heresy called perfectionism. This heresy has re-appeared in our backyard, now disguised with a fancy name that only a few people can actually recognize, LGT - Last Generation Theology. Same heresy, new fancy disguise.

We had several LGTarians landing here in the past few years, always coming very subtly but infiltrating their deceit step by step, baby steps. So far we have caught them all. But some may now come wearing a COVID mask, more difficult to identify them… LOL

If perfectionism was Satan’s idea…, well I don’t know that. What I know is that the heresy has some followers that are very subtly and quietly infiltrating it among the youth. Those who have kids need to explain this issue to them before they fall in the trap!

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But wouldn’t that make God an accomplice to the theft and the lying? Instead of inspiring Ellen with the thoughts and the words, He chose to inspire Melville with them and then inspire Ellen to steal them? (And then to deny it. And deny it. And deny it. And Deny it).

I have a letter from Fred Veltman in which he says that after spending the better part of a decade analyzing her methods in the production of The Desire of Ages, he was even more depressed by her denial of the copying than by the copying itself.

And of course, Wilson the First downplayed Fred’s finding and reneged on his support of a book describing those findings. (It was Wilson who had commissioned Fred’s massive research.)

But God wouldn’t do that anyway, and besides, it badly violates Occam’s razor. :roll_eyes:

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It is likely that both Melvill and EGW had similar thoughts and Ellen used some of Melvill’s writings rather than reinventing the wheel. But that would devastate the charge that EGW was a false prophet and give her credibility. I do not believe that false prophet allegation, because the evidence is too flimsy. ‘Believe His prophets and prosper.’

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This is the answer (argument) parroted by EGW Estate, apologists and diehard followers. Have you done any study yourself? Do it and you’ll come to know the truth.

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Her first vision (1844), I found strikingly parallel (in every respect) to John Bunyan’s Pilgrim’s Progress; Ephraim Woods’, The Vision; or, a View of Terrestrial Objects, 1820; and The Christian Experience of William E. Foy, 1842.

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The good news is that I have studied it myself. I have found EGW to be a prophet because of the evidence even though she never claimed the title for herself. Thus, I have examined the flimsy allegations that you put so much trust in and found them wanting. Though I can agree with the EGW Estates on the point of Ellen’s genuineness while differing on some other points.

When the Bible is studied first and EGW is then studied as a supplement, marvelous truths are revealed that will prepare the saints to work for Jesus and to prepare for His Advent.

White’s Christian character, writings, and good works have blessed humanity as God planned: “I wish above all things that thou mayest prosper and be in health, even as thy soul prospereth” (3 John 1:2). She exalted Jesus thru sound Bible teachings, promoted education globally, taught sound health principles, established hospitals like Loma Linda, and taught folks how to better themselves. Google her. Critics may belittle her looks, but they cannot fault her godly life and character: “Whereas they speak against you as evildoers, they may by your good works, which they shall behold, glorify God in the day of visitation” (1 Peter 2:12). [The Last Trump Shall Sound: Michael Stands, p. 10]

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" I had no vision until 1845" {LS80 221.1}

That should not surprise anyone.

John Bunyan breathed the very atmosphere of heaven; and there he wrote his wonderful allegory of the pilgrim’s journey from the land of destruction to the celestial city. For over two hundred years that voice from Bedford jail has spoken with thrilling power to the hearts of men. Bunyan’s Pilgrim’s Progress and Grace Abounding to the Chief of Sinners have guided many feet into the path of life. {GC 252.2}

there was Foy that had had visions. He had had four visions…They were written out and published, and it is queer that I cannot find them in any of my books. But we have moved so many times. He had four. {17MR 95.4}

When Ellen searched for Foy’s books, she could not find them in her book collection. Aparently they got misplaced. She appears to have been an avid reader.

I had an interview with him. He wanted to see me, and I talked with him a little. They had appointed for me to speak that night, and I did not know that he was there. I did not know at first that he was there. While I was talking I heard a shout, and he is a great, tall man, and the roof was rather low, and he jumped right up and down, and oh, he praised the Lord, praised the Lord. It was just what he had seen, just what he had seen. But they extolled him so I think it hurt him, and I do not know what became of him. {17MR 96.2}

Godly men and women are bearing the same testimony to the glory of God.

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This is wonderful! Since Ellen was apparently an avid reader, she was able to recognize the contributions of godly authors and recall their ideas as she wrote. While writing a scripture will come to my mind and I often paraphrase it in my own words. Then sometimes, I pause and look up the passage and quote it exactly.

What you are painting a criminal offence on Ellen White’s part is the gift to recall what she had read and apply it in a setting that is appropriate.

Did you hear that Helen Keller once wrote a book that was well received until it was discovered that she had plagiarized someone else’s work. Apparently someone had read that entire book to Hellen (and that was quite a task spelling the entire book onto Helen’s hand). Then years later this totally blind and deaf woman wrote the entire book from memory not realizing that it was a rehashing of the book that had been read to her years earlier. When it was all said and done the author did not think that Hellen Keller had intentionally tried to pass his work off as her own, but that due to circumstances, she had made an innocent mistake. But Helen Keller never wrote another book fearing that she might do the same thing.

Thanks for sharing the evidence that EGW and others were preaching a similar message. When we have two or more godly people saying the same things, we do well to pay attention to their messages rather than criticizing the fact that THEY ARE SAYING THE SAME THING!

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You better get your facts about Ellen White correct. She had a vision in December 1844, and had no vision until 1845. That’s what it meant.

“James White wrote in 1847 about her first vision: “When she received her first vision, Dec. 1844” –The Ellen G. White Letters and Manuscripts, p. 48.1, 2014.

“When she [Ellen] received her first vision, December, 1844” – 1BIO, p. 61.1, 1985.

“Across the river in South Portland, in December, 1844, she had received her first vision, a vision of the Advent people traveling to the City of God” – 6BIO, p. 211.2

You are again terribly wrong about Helen! It was not a book that she wrote that got her into problem, it was just a story (The frost King) she penned out of memory while she was yet 11 years old. This was a part of my research too. I have her book where she mentions this incident. The difference between Ellen and Helen is – Ellen deliberately copied all her life, denied it, and never confessed it. Whereas, Helen admitted her mistake though young, set things right and won the respect of the world! You have to do some home work before you comment.

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