Perspective: Can a Church Survive if It Gives Up Its Sectarian Identity?

(George Tichy) #346

Yes, I can see your avatar. Don’t mess with it. Ain’t broke don’t fix it! You look great on it, why to change it? LOL


ROFL! You guy fell for my trap pretty well :smile: I wanted to see how much you know about the Jesuits and you know quite a bit on the subject! You also are very good at defending them…

I believe that anyone, I don’t care who it is, who goes and gets an education from a school run by the Jesuits, will be affected by their teaching. Those who think they can sit at the feet of the Anti Christ’s henchmen (Excessive. - webEd) and not be affected by their dogmas are brainwashed indeed!


The difference between William Miller and Walter Veith and C.S.Lewis is that both totally and publicly renounced their belief it Free Masonry/Satanism. Lewis did no such thing, and not once did he condemn the Masons/Satanists in his writings. Correct me if I’m wrong.


I don’t mind :smile: Orangemen can take it! Thanks though!

(Elaine Nelson) #350

Yes, as a graduate from a very fine Jesuit college I agree that their teaching affects students. They are in the forefront of promoting justice and peace, something that Jesus often taught, and have sent many students to various countries, particularly in Central America to offer services that have been so neglected by their respective governments.

On example that will never be forgotten: All candidates for graduation had to write a spiritual autobiography explaining how they arrived at their own personal ideology, devoid of all proselytizing for any particular religion or creed. It was a very difficult subject and most students had to rewrite because it did not represent the assignment. It was a very personal and introspective exercise that everyone should do. I wonder how many Adventist colleges, and the Seminary require such a paper?


Good to hear :+1:

Just be careful though of how far you take things. We have had a few get banned in recent times. Nothing wrong with standing up, strongly even, for what you believe. But a word of advice: certain words, if used wrongly, or overly used, will do you no favors. Also try and say something positive every now and then.

Welcome back.


Maybe you do not realise the extreme nature of the oath that some of your teachers where made to take

(Elaine Nelson) #353

“It must be true I read it on the internet.”

(George Tichy) #354

Elaine, you are a "classy "Jesuit, I must say!!! :wink:

(George Tichy) #355

Great technique… It works!!! :slight_smile:

(Christopher) #356

“The way Ellen White used her sources without acknowledgement wasn’t acceptable even in her own day, and she was repeatedly challenged over it. One of her books (Sketches from the Life of Paul) even had to be withdrawn after the first publication run, because she was threatened with a law suit by the authors of the book she copied from.”

I am in absolute agreement with the above comment about Ellen white’s use of others’ works. If the law of the land did not forbid the use of material produced by others, or if it were a common practice among the writers of her time, there is the eternal law of God which commanded us not to steal - in any way, anything by whatever pretext. Prophet Jeremiah gave a clear warning to those false prophets who steal words from others (Jeremiah 23:30). Our prophet should have known these things better. Unfortunately she felt herself above the law.
In order to find out for myself whether the allegation of her copying from the Life and Epistles of St. Paul by Conybeare & howson, I purchased a fascimile edition of Sketches from the life of Paul and the original edition of Life and Epistles of St. Paul (1911. ed) compared both chapter by chapter (32 chapters of Ellen white’s book). As a result I discovered that every chapter in Ellen White’s book contained palgiarised material. One interesting thing i found was that she had made equal use of F. w. Farrar’s The Life and work of St. Paul. I have the original copy of this book too. She did not stop there. She used Daniel March’s Night scenes in the Bible and the Walks and Homes of Jesus; The Footsteps of St. Paul” by John Ross Macduff, “History of Nero” by Jacob Abbott, Matthew Henry’s commentary for additional input of her book. Shall we let her off the hook of plagiarism? That’s what our church leaders want us to do. Because this book was full of plagiarised material they stopped the publication but published it in a different title, the Acts of the Apostles!
There is a serious blunder in this book not noticed by the publishers till this day. She got confused between Festus and Felix. I quote: “ Festus knew nothing of the conspiracies of the Jews to murder Paul, and he was surprised at this appeal to Caesar. It was not flattering to the pride of the Roman procurator, that the first case brought before him should be thus referred to higher authority. However, the words of the apostle put a stop to the proceedings of the court. Felix held a brief consultation with his counsel , and all agreeing that the appeal was legally admissible, he said to the prisoner: “Hast thou appealed unto Caesar? unto Caesar shalt thou go”” (Sketches from the life of Paul, p. 250, 1883).

Error corrected in the new version of the book but not in the original:

Festus knew nothing of the conspiracies of the Jews to murder Paul, and he was surprised at this appeal to Caesar. However, the words of the apostle put a stop to the proceedings of the court. “ Festus , when he had conferred with the council , answered, Hast thou appealed unto Caesar? unto Caesar shalt thou go”” (AA. p. 430, 1911).

Acts 25:12 – “Then Festus, when he had conferred with the council , answered, Hast thou appealed unto Caesar? unto Caesar shalt thou go.” This is the truth behind the Sketches from the Life of Paul. This book was just a compilation of plagiarised material. Will the church accept it?

(George Tichy) #357

I miss @robert_sonter’s participation here. He is a very knowledgeable person who had a long experience in Adventism. But he certainly got tired of it … Perfectly understandable though!

(Christopher) #358

If Satan was so concerned about being exposed, he he would have in the first place blocked the publication of John Milton’s Paradise Lost which gave the true picture of “great controversy”. It was this book that exposed Satan not Ellen White’s Great Controversy which was but a reproduction of Paradise Lost under a feigned vision at Lovett’s Grove. I believe Milton was inspired. Satan is least bothered with Ellen White’s books!

(Christopher) #359

Did you know friend, Ellen White’s voluminous works were but reproductions of what others have written any where from a decade to centuries before her? There is nothing new in her books. Adventists still boast she was unique! Was she?

(George Tichy) #360

Worth watching again, Ford and Rea on the Ankerberg Show:


(Robert Sonter) #361

Thanks for the kind words, George. The several years I spent on Spectrum conversing with you and many others, were enjoyable, rewarding and instructive. I moved on for a couple of reasons.

One is that having become self-employed as an IT consultant, I’ve found my work-life balance something of a challenge.

The other is that I’ve moved well beyond Adventism and as I’m now Agnostic/Atheist in my belief framework, I no longer find I have much to meaningfully discuss with the Spectrum set.

But I have an ongoing interest in what happens in the church because both my parents are still alive (87 and 85 years old) and these two dear souls spent their entire careers working for the church, mostly in what’s referred to as the “Mission field”. My dad was an educator and is qualified to PHD level, and is also an ordained pastor. My “lurking around the edges” is partly due to this - my dad is very disappointed with some of the present goings on in the church - but is also disappointed that I, his only son, has left the church…

Yeah. It can be complicated. Anyways, good to chat again. Stay well

(Cfowler) #362

It’s interesting, but not surprising, the list of people who declined the invitation to come on the show. Neal Wilson, Robert Olson (Chairman of EGW Estate), William Johnsson and 2 or 3 others. One would think they would be chomping at the bit to take advantage of the opportunity to defend and speak on topics of such importance regarding Adventism (and the world, according to what the believe their message to be). Their absence speaks volumes!

(George Tichy) #363

Glad hearing from you and learning that you are actually alive and well. :open_mouth:
As you can see things didn’t change much around here, just most of the good old names have been replaced by good new names. Though some of us "veterans keep insisting…
In general we have had some good conversations, except sometimes when some of those LGTarians land down here to stir things up. But it’s always a short stay and the place becomes weed-free again. This site actually is suspending people for 1,000 (one thousand) years now, if/when there are violations. Literally, they become “millennials” right away! :rofl: Instant reward!.. lol
I understand your position and your decision. I embraced Agnosticism long time ago, but not Atheism. So, I am just hanging in there, observing where (which rocks) this crazy Church administration is going to wreck the ship on.
Wishing you the best always. Stop by once in a while, just to say hi.
Be well.

(George Tichy) #364

Their refusal to go was a public attestation that they knew they could not win an argument with Ford and Rea in a public eye. Their crusade was motivated by administrative power & control, not on search for truth or any Christian values. The wouldn’t dare to confront Des and Rea on TV. They would only work using the tactics uswed at Glacier View. Bunch of hypocrites! And here we are, wasting our time talking about them again… :roll_eyes:

Why do you think the GC people don’t participate here at all?

(Cfowler) #365

[quote=“GeorgeTichy, post:364, topic:8091”]
And here we are, wasting our time talking about them again…

George, I think it is good to talk about these things. If we don’t, these serious issues will be lost and forgotten. Not everyone will see the problems, but they need to be exposed nonetheless, for some to see.