You describe perfectly the position that the proponents of the unity document advocate. They see only one side and have discarded the position of the other believers. They will soon be out and about hunting the other believers, seeking to skin them alive. Yes, they think like Lucifer, believing they are in the right. They rebel against the very rudiments of Christianity - meekness, transparency, charity, equality and justice in Christ.
Yes… and no… Yes, the decision is left to the unions to decide who is an acceptable person among a pool of candidates but no, it doesn’t give the unions the right to decide unilaterally what the criteria are to belong to that pool. They never had that power.
Who are you to decide that it is non-moral? This is precisely the question at hand. In fact, there are people even here among the commentators on Spectrum who think that this is a moral issue…
But I will not call you dishonest… simply mistaken.
My, oh my… You really believe it, huh? That’s your right. But I have not seen a lot of meekness, transparency, charity, or justice in Christ here either… And, my, how much the opponents to the GC think that they are in the right also…
So, what do we do? Just let both side throw mud at each other? Is it what we want? How far do you think we will go like that?
I can tell you: not far…
I can go on the Advindicate website and find the same kind of statement… Kind of “like it or leave it”. You are smart enough to see that it is a very weak argumentation, argumentation that you would not accept from the other side.
The church’s position is that it is a non-moral issue nor salvation criteria so your statement is specious. This has been an issue of Policy.
Unless you are of the opinion that this is now one of the 10 commandments or some specific instruction of Jesus I am completely baffled by your reply.
The church must have authority. But I fear we have given insufficient attention to policies we already have in place. This policy elevates policy as the defining task of unity. Many great developments in policy have been preceded by acts of non-compliance. Are we going to place under warning and reprimand those parts of the world that have not yet found it appropriate to ordain deaconesses even though thats a policy? Policy is a servant of mission, not it’s master. Our own history and that of many other organization teach us that organizations structured around centralized authority lead to problems
I hear your concerns and they may be valid… My concerns are that many people on both sides of the issue are having a “us against them” mentality, that they are throwing mud at and demonizing each other, and that many people are not always honest/coherent/impartial in their declarations and tactics on both sides of the issue.
Like you said, the church must have (a certain) authority but, like you showed, we have to be careful with it as it can “lead to problems”.
On the other hand, unions need to have (some) independence but, at the same time, this independence must not be a license for them to do whatever they decide regardless of what the rest of the church has decided.
This is not a black and white situation and not everybody is a saint (or a demon) on both sides of the debate. We have to remember that Satan is the great divider and we don’t want to forget who the real enemy is here as the devil is trying to pit one side against the other.
This story has nothing to do with ordaining women whom the Holy Spirit has called. Following the call of God is not a death sentence from God as rebellion.
Speaking for me now? Not humorous.
Sorry, no time for this kind of exchange.
My point was that we have to be careful when we start putting labels… We have the tendency to put nice labels to ourselves while demonizing the other side whereas we could, in fact, be in the wrong…
Korah and his friends surely thought they were the good guys trying to “save” the people from the “tyrannical authority” of Moses but God didn’t share their opinions…
Many people think that they are on the right side of the issues but they could be wrong…
Concerning women ordination, it is easy for each side to invoke the Holy Spirit. Also success in a ministry does not mean that one has to be ordained. In fact, it shows that one doesn’t need to be ordained to have a successful ministry. So this issue has less to do with being enabled in a ministry and more to do with a lack of understanding and wisdom, power grab and turf wars, egos and blindness, and this maybe on both sides. And since God is not the author of confusion, we can see who is at work in the church today.
I don’t doubt the sincerity of many who are in favor of women ordination but I don’t doubt the sincerity of many who are opposed either.
Since the church is the body of Christ, since the church is Christ’s, it is better to apply His methods to solve the present conundrum. In fact, this could be a perfect opportunity to show the world how those who are in Christ solve issues.
@GeorgeTichy, I would suggest that they might start with the Scandinavian Unions for the simple reason it may be an easier win, plus less visible if it fails. An attack on PUC or CUC upfront could (probably would) lead to an embarrassing loss. Right now TW is basking in a victory but his actions are motivated by “revenge”. He will not be happy until PUC and CUC have been brought to heel. By taking on the Scandinavian Unions he has an opportunity to learn an appropriate strategy to launch on the other unions. Plus, the Scandinavian Unions are less wealthy and less influential in his economic heartland. He will let PUC and CUC continue as is for now, so that he has a longer piece of compliance rope to hang them with after his action in Scandinavia.
Indeed. And when controlling people gain a victory, they become more energized and empowered with their agenda.
I think you are right. Save the bigger more powerful fish for later. But, I’m sure the strategy is being laid out for the future strike.
Watch out Scandinavians! Here come the Americans! …
…said the pharisees as their excuse to execute God
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