Presidential Plagiarism Accusations Surface at WAU

(Andrew) #43

Really! That’s a response to the problem if it exists? This is a real world issue not one worthy of primary Sabbath School, “Dare to be a Daniel” responses.

(Andrew) #44

He’s probably been employed as a pre-insolvency manager to navigate the best possible soft landing.

(Cfowler) #45

Thanks for asking Jeremy about his comment, “…Veltman’s conclusion that EGW’s sources used each other in the same she used them…”

I’ve never heard that, and I would think that the EGW faithful would have mentioned this before. It sounded a bit off to me, but I’ve never read the report.

(jeremy) #46

well, i would think helping oneself to someone else’s work, who may have helped him or herself to someone else’s work, would include making a profit…

my assumption from what i’ve seen is that ramik was commissioned without instruction for a desired outcome, and that he would have had to have been paid regardless of what he concluded…church sources are generally fond of pointing out that ramik was a catholic…

i haven’t seen any study done on egw sources that can substantiate this veltman claim…what i’m referring to is what i’ve seen in:


“In the process of doing our research we found that Ellen White’s sources had previously used each other in the same way that she later used them. At times the parallels between the sources were so strong that we had difficulty deciding which one Ellen White was using.”

in the url above, scroll down to Personal Postscript, by Fred Veltman, Ministry December 1990 (i wasn’t able to locate this in Ministry Magazine), under section 2.

(James ) #47

Yes Really. Deep stuff here. No Fake News either. The problem with our SDA organizations/Leaders today is that we leave the word of God out of our operations and follow the world’s (Babylon’s) educational philosophies and evil business practices to solve our problems. We should depend on God’s words and prayers to address the dictators that have become emperors in the SDA organizations.

(jeremy) #48

not so fast, george…the reality is that you believe in a shut door when it comes to the biblical canon, and you believe that catholic fathers had the right to determine what was in or out of that canon…strictly speaking, you’re really a shut door catholic adventist :smirk:

do catholic fathers have the right to change sabbath from saturday to sunday…if not, what gives them the right to close the biblical canon…

(George Tichy) #49

Yes, “that fast Jeremy.” You follow EGW, it’s your right. I will stick to the Bible only, “Sola Scriptura.”

(jeremy) #50

i believe egw’s sources were dead when she used them, and so wouldn’t have used her, with or without attribution…

(jeremy) #51

no worries…notice that the bible provides for the gift of prophecy, and that the history of god’s people, as portrayed in the bible, has always been characterized by the ministry of prophets…

meanwhile, neither the word bible, nor the term sola scripture, is in the bible…obviously you’re comfortable with extra-biblical material, in addition to other people telling you what the bible must consist of…

(David Hamstra) #53

In no. 8, Spence quoted Rob Hard without attribution (assuming the research in the paper is correct). It is Hard who cited Tricia Stream.


I wasn’t going to respond, but oh well. God is willing to kill over money (see Ananias and Sapphira). But God doesn’t kill predator clergy. I think it’s obvious at this point that one cannot rely on God for justice or vengeance or retaliation. Someone you know WILL dash their foot against the stone. Someone you know WILL tread upon an adder and be bitten and die. An elephant just killed a poacher and a lion devoured him (recent news).
Regardless, and returning to the original topic, Christians retaliate, because they’re human. Adventists are not exempt from being awful. And the information is such that it can be corroborated by anyone with access to google. A name adds nothing to the veracity of the allegations.


His total compensation package has exceeded $200,000.

Compare this to Andrews University, even considering cost of living (as WAU provides paid for accommodations in the presidential mansion) …

(Barry Casey) #56

Spot on, Ecclesiastes.

(James ) #57

Glad you responded. My folks have always said that your deeds will eventually catch up with you. Ananias and Sapphira eventually realized that. However, our God is an awesome God and he reigns forever.

(Steve Mga) #58

George –
Revelation 12:17
Revelation 19:10
Do we rest our case on JUST the King James of 1611?
Or do some later translations add a more complete understanding?
Perhaps we take John’s statements and compare them to Paul’s
understanding of what the “Gift of Prophecy” is and put them together.
Paul – 1 Corinthians 14 – not future telling but edify, exhort, comfort,
Which if we are able to put them together, perhaps the “Spirit of
Prophecy” is NOT just ONE person, but can be many in the Christian
.church. Maintaining their faith in Jesus and witnessing for Jesus.
Just a thought.

(Steve Mga) #59

Jeremy –
The same question could be asked about the Old Testament canon.
When there were other great writings that could have been included.
WHO gave them permission to JUST have 39 books?

Actually, it took the church fathers a long time to decide that Revelation
was worth inserting into the N.T and making it 27 books.

(jeremy) #60

why any of us have to be guided by what catholic church fathers decided hundreds of yrs ago is a good question…but like with the question of sunday sabbath, basically the whole world is following the catholic church on the canon question…

(Eric Anderson) #61

It is not true that plagiarism is okay outside the classroom. Remember how awkward it was for Melania Trump when she (or her speech writer) copied from Michelle Obama? Or what about Joe Biden’s embarrassing appropriation of Neil Kinnock’s words?

(Steve Mga) #62

Jeremy –
If we don’t use the New Testament as we have now, because we do NOT
agree with the Church Fathers [they were “Catholic”], WHAT Would You
Suggest one use for Spirituality, and WHAT would you ADD or TAKE AWAY
from the suggested list of readings for the N.T. that have been passed around
since the days of the Apostles [A.D. 100]?

As far as the order of Paul’s writings, they were assorted by length. Longest 1st,
shortest last. James is the 1st one to actually quote Jesus.

(Cfowler) #63

Are you saying that, for you, the Bible is unreliable and EGW is the more reliable source?