“Queer Eye” and the Divine Gaze: Shame and Grace in 21st Century Worship

(George Tichy) #22

Steve I have to check the chest in the attic. I may have a set there as well. That would make things way easier… :roll_eyes: :innocent:

(Patrick Travis) #23

For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men, 12 instructing us to deny ungodliness and worldly desires and to live sensibly, righteously and godly in the present age, looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus, who gave Himself for us to redeem us from every lawless deed, and to purify for Himself a people for His own possession, zealous for good deeds. Titus 2:11-14. NASB. Subjuntive plural “should deny”

(George Tichy) #24

Mind explaining exactly what you mean with quoting this Scripture in the context of this conversation?

(Steve Mga) #25

Paul to Titus - The Grace of God has brought salvation to all men.
The purification of all men is by being zealous for doing good deeds.

Pat – did you have some other thought in mind when dropped it here?

(Patrick Travis) #26

Same thought process as Tom’s above. Both “straight’s” and LGBTQ’s are sinners. Both at times use shame and jugmental attitudes towards each other. All of we sinners called of God’s Spirit are to desire that we are to be convicted of our individual sins by the Spirit and be instructed by Him and purpose by grace to overcome those things that are offensive to God. This is merely being set apart to grow in holiness sanctified by His word and Spirit. …though never arriving in this life what we in Christ are reckoned to be.

(Steve Mga) #27

LGBT persons in good standing in the church-- The ones on the Speaking
Circuits of the church – see themselves “holier than those” who are
more open to their true selves and allow themselves to have Human
Companionship. [One couple I met had a 60 year anniversary. Met
when one 19 and the other 21.]

(shshsh) #28

Still trying to figure out the purpose of this writing…

(George Tichy) #29

Maybe to keep the conversation about this issue going on so that more people will understand the issue better. There is still a lot of misunderstanding and confusion about the physiological aspects involved. As Mayor Pete said, referring to VP Pence, (I am paraphrasing), “If you have a problem with this issue you have a problem with my Creator.” He just nailed it!

This is why the conversation about it in Church is so important. It’s an attempt to increase knowledge, to understand the facts, and to stop unfounded accusations.

In my opinion, this is not only fair but extremely necessary. More education on any issue is always necessary and welcome. Well, … at least it should be…

(Patrick Travis) #30

George this is the way I see it. Since the fall we all have various “genetic” pre-disposition’s and environmentally learned dispositions. I have always had a very healthy, perhaps overly, disposition to love “the scent of a woman” as the movie with Al Pacino that I need to deal with.
I don’t believe any of us is mastered by any of our predispositions, genetic or environmental. This is not to throw stones because I could receive some myself and would be deserving. I feel a professing Christian’s call is to grow in those things and ways written in scripture, as I believe these things please the one who Justified us, is growing us in holiness and will perfect in us perfect abilities at His appearing.
So I believe in areas of behavior none of us is controlled by genetic or environmental forces that make us powerless to respond to scriptural musts and oughts/shoulds that scripture requires from food, sex, attitudes, pride etc. as led of the HS.
That said we are on a journey and we all often fail in our personel “secret sin.” Thank goodness for God’s grace and longsuffering.
No response necessary…

(shshsh) #31

Still trying to figure out the purpose of this writing. Having read the bible 7 times and being a truth seeker, I have found that some subjects are perfectly clear and some people twist the truths to fit a narrative. It is clear that God created male and female and blessed them to have sexual relations with each other, male to female. LGBTQ are simply trying to muddy the truths to fit their desires. It really isn’t that difficult to understand. I suppose I could muddy the acronym by saying L= law, G = God, B = bible, T = truth, Q = eQual justice for all.
Shame and Grace…Now, who is feeling shameful and why? Who is experiencing grace and when?

(Tim Teichman) #32

Yours is a tempting position, given what we have been taught. However, medical knowledge (much of it recent and still unfolding) based on research and data tells us that the field of gender is much more complicated than you suggest. The bible accommodates this to a degree, if you look for it, in its references to the various types of eunuchs.

In short, there are more types of people than just male and female, considering both genetics and developmental biology. Gender is built into the brain as much as into the genome.

I highly recommend this book, which taught me a lot on how the brain works and I think reset me a bit in how I think about “the others”, people that are not like me in various ways I used to basically mock or discredit:

Touching a Nerve: The Self as Brain 1st Edition - by Patricia Churchland

(Johnny Carson) #33

I find it fascinating that the biblical writers didn’t know the things we know today but they did write from what they knew to be true at the time. And God did not choose to enlighten them regarding biology, genetics, gender, and sexuality. Today we know a whole lot more about all of those things, and as Tim says, it’s not as clear cut as you’d like to make it.

Grace? It’s something all experience regardless of shame. Who is the source of shame? The accuser of the brethren, perhaps? Who experiences Grace and When? Everyone, "While they are yet sinners."

With that in mind, it’s hardly productive to point out others who are experiencing God in a different manner and different timing than you and I are as being anything other than fellow travelers who are experiencing Grace.

(Tim Teichman) #34

If I could I’d like your post 10x.

(Tim Teichman) #35

Yea, but that wouldn’t make any sense, so who would actually do that? :rofl:

(Johnny Carson) #36

Glad it touched you. Just part of my own journey to healing and wholeness :slight_smile:

(Cfowler) #37

I don’t know.:thinking:

But, I’ve heard of such groups. Are they urban legends? :grin:

(Patrick Travis) #38

John, I appreciate the words in Amazing Grace including, "It was grace that taught my heart to fear and grace my fears relieved "
I believe there is a work of the HS that convicts of Sin and also one that relieves of guilt and shame.
Grace instructs, convicts and forgives in the process of restoration.
By the way, the “junk” between the legs is pretty much the same today as in Gen.1:27 and Mt.19:4. :slight_smile:

(Patrick Travis) #39

Mistakenly double posted


I assume that you are a happily married, heterosexual male.
God forbid, that you should lose your spouse and be left a widower!

I would wager a bet that if that happens, you will be remarried,
within a year— not for the sex, but because you
will not be able to stand the LONELINESS!

So please stop pontificating about “ mastering predispositions, genetic or environmental “. You need to “walk in the mocassins “ of those so “ genetically predisposed” , and experience their own hurt and loneliness!

(Patrick Travis) #41

Hi Robin,
Ever heard the advice of an attorney prof. Don’t ask a question or pose a question you dont know the answer to.
My first wife divorced me after 18 years, I was 39 and she 38 during the 1st phase of the “womens lib” movement when moms were captive at home. We were married young in those days. I was 21. We are friends now.
I was single for 10 yrs. before my 2nd marriage. I have been married 24yrs in my second. I made no vow of chastity during that 10 yrs. Of being alone but not necessarily lonely. Singles can adapt also.
This isnt about me. It’s about not overstating or understating what scripture says. That way I dont remove the keel and rudder and compass of the sail boat…when seeking a destination under sail on my journey.
I try not to pontificate or “people please.”