Real Sinners


Kim I have asked everyone I can think of why this video from the head of theology at LLU was taken down because for many years it was the beacon of truth from the post modern perspective and it, apparently, was the model for post-modern Adventist thinking as per my BIL pastor of a major Adventist church. I happen to have quoted from it…

(Kim Green) #43

Why do you believe it was taken down?


Not sure Kim as many of his other sermons are out there. Could be that particular one had too much cult-of-Ellen in it. Referencing how we should be more like Ellen so others would want to be was just a bit too much Jesus replacement?

(Kim Green) #45

That’s a reasonable assumption… it went too far to be palatable to some.


My mistake. You took that quote from one of my comments. I was saying that some sins, say pride or greed, find no meaningful repentance because the person is sort of blind to their own condition. Again my apology. I thought it was a reference to the quote in the article and I misunderstood.

(Maria V. Blair) #47

All good. Have a Happy Sabbath and the way I see it we post because we care about what others have to say and because through you and the others we also find comfort and support. This is a good place to start a discussion. God bless.



This sin seems to have gotten you on the war path so to speak. How would you suggest we treat these kind of people? Is there forgiveness and healing available or maybe not?

(Patrick Travis) #49

This sin of behavior is no different than any other in my view. My issue IS with saying it is…making it a special category. That is my “warpath” as you imply.
I feel honesty is the best way to deal with issues and seek remedies. Should a pastor baptize a member who is unmarried continually having m/f sex openly known to all, while openly saying/demanding it is genetic and thus “being” and thus normal.
The “issue” concerns what the norms of scripture says for behavior…nothing else. It affects us all the same. When we all fail do we ask for repentance and forgiveness or do we say it is just “being” and normal?
Should all be respected as human beings? Of course! In my view your talking about church membership issues not daily relationships.

(David) #50

Good answer Pat.

If they don’t want to play by the rules there’s another club down the road called the world.


(Elmer Cupino) #51

If they were blind to their condition, then they have to be unblinded, at which point their repentance would be just as credible and meaningful as others.

(Elmer Cupino) #52

Among heterosexuals, the “normal” sexual preference is attraction to the opposite sex whereas homosexuals, the “normal” sexual preference is same sex attraction. If the scriptures were referring to normal behaviors then I see no issues with normal sexual practices.

With regards to your example, it is normal for heterosexuals to be attracted to the opposite sex, However for them to engage in sexual intercourse requires a marriage certificate so as not to sin. Sexual intercourse in itself is not a sin.

(Patrick Travis) #53

Elmer, The marriage cerificate is authorized by society. It is evidence of a joining of two people. The church, in theory, knows those who are biblically married according to its customs of the time and place whether having a certificate or not.
Behavior standards, as you say, exist for heterosexuals as well as other living sexual behaviors.
I think one strains a bit defining preference vs. Attraction. If one was talking of Bi then they would be attracted to both but perhaps have a preference, you think?
Thanks Elmer,

(Patrick Travis) #54

There is also another church down the road that may offer membership. That would be their right though and I respect it in society though differing from it in biblical authority.
We have posters that have done that and I commend them and am happy they have created relationships for where “they are.”


Do you see God’s people as a club with rules? Or are we a community of faith?

(David) #56

We teach our kids the importance of boundaries. The boundaries are there to keep them safe. If you don’t have boundaries, it isn’t long before you’re having to deal with free-for-alls and compromised values.

I believe the same principle applies to a community of faith. James says faith without works is dead. I would also suggest that faith without boundaries and guiding principles is a worthless faith. It’s like the salt that looses its seasoning - good for nothing but the dung heap (Christ). The law provides the boundaries and the guiding principles IMO.

Paul says, “through faith we establish the law.” Rom. 3:31

James said, “If you really fulfill the Royal law according to the scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” you do well. But if you show partiality, you commit sin, and are convicted by the law as transgressors… So speak and so do as those who will be judged by the law of liberty.” James 2:8-9,12



So do we set boundaries for people who are prideful, envious, wrathful, greedy, and slothful, and tell them, “There is another club down the street with different rules—-the world?” Or do we only treat certain of the more loathsome sinners that way?

(David) #58

James says treat them all the same and I agree.


(George Tichy) #59

IMHO, this issue is much more between the gay persons and their Creator. They have nothing to discuss with us. I know, the Church should not accept members who live in certain sins, and practicing homosexual acts are part of it.

The main problem is that many people still criticize the gays (LGBT etc) for BEING the way they are, not making a distinction being BEING and DOING. There are many gays who ARE but are not DOING.

And those so-called conversion (reversion) therapies are all a farce, baloney. The are therapies effective to help people to make a choice of not engaging in sexual relationships. But I have never seen one gay person becoming straight! Stopping the behavior, yes. Changing nature, no!

(Michael Wortman) #60

For many, marriage has been known to be an effective remedy for this kind of blindness.

(Robert Lindbeck) #61

There is NO sin that God can’t forgive. God HAS forgiven ALL sin. The issue is not with what God can or can’t forgive. The issue is can we, will we accept that forgiveness. Judas was lost not because he betrayed Christ but he refused to accept the forgiveness that was on offer. Satan wants us to feel guilt. He wants us to feel bad about sinning. When we do, we focus on ourselves and our sin rather than on Christ and His forgiveness. We can forgive others for what they do to us but are we prepared to accept the forgiveness that God freely offers to us? Isn’t that what grace is? Isn’t that what His love is?