Reflections on Annual Council


(Elmer Cupino) #22

How did you get so much information? Have you and God been talking to each other or should you call our offices for an appointment?


(Nathan Robinson) #23

Thanks for the great article and reflection.

In the last section of the article, a couple options are envisioned: 1) That TW will change, or 2) That TW will step down. Neither of these are realistic, and the third unstated option, 3) That TW will not be re-elected in 2020, is also not realistic.

Why is option 3 not realistic? I think TW will be re-elected for lack of opposition or viable alternative candidates. TW has tied up a voting block to support him for as long as he desires to remain in office. Even if that block fails him, who is the alternative candidate?

Think about this hard: Who is there to step up as a viable, reasonable, electable alternate candidate to be GC President? If there is going to be a change in leadership in 2020, then the conversation about who would replace TW must begin now. Names please . . .


(Thomas J Zwemer) #24

heartland is a Standish operation, The vitriol they they heaped on Des Ford came out of the pits of hell. Their tithe is close to the thirty pieces of silver. Ted is welcome to it.


#25

Yeah some want to thin the herd too


#26

Oh yes,

I am not an institutional SDA which is PROUD of the organization and want to make more millions of “Adventists” rather than believers in & followers of Jesus.

I am more interested in Jesus , the gospel, grace & scriptures rather than hearing leaders do pep talks for the Laodicean mob.


(jeremy) #27

what may really be happening is the needed separation from the institutional safety blanket each of us may have unwittingly cultivated…the disciples had to cut the apron strings to their church and leaders in order to follow jesus, and the fall-out from WO may be making that easier for many of us to do now…

one thing’s for sure: no-one’s going to pass through the time of trouble successfully who is in any way dependent on the church institution…egw says we’ll see every earthly tie cut off…


(Eric Webster) #28

Gideon, I am not sure as to who you want to thin out. But please remember that Jesus was never interested in getting rid of people. He came to seek and save all the lost. He told of the shepherd who went out to find the one lost sheep. He said let the wheat and the tares grow together until the harvest. We will make huge mistakes if we think we know who are the tares.


(Kim Green) #29

He may already be seeing someone professionally for those special “talks with God”. :wink:


#30

I appreciate the comments in this article. His observations are right on. The Unions are in keeping with the Adventist Church and are being led by the Spirit. It is shameful the way Ted Wilson is “leading” the Church. I think he should resign. He is not the leader for this denomination in the 21st century. He is more than anything else very divisive.


(Pierre-Paul Legault) #31

Yes! However, would that the leaders of the dissident Unions, Conferences and Divisions also realise that this isn’t a “Hier stehe ich. Ich kann nicht anders” moment or issue, and tone down the rhetoric.


(jeremy) #32

to the contrary, i think this is very definitely a “Here I stand. I can do no other” moment…if unions, conferences and divisions cave in now, our church will really and truly be run by a few people at the GC, which is exactly what egw said shouldn’t happen…

of course TW wants to see a GC vote mean something, and there’s nothing wrong with that, but he’s overstepped the bounds of all acceptable methods for making that happen…instead of thinking of arguments for MH that could convince WO unions to stop ordaining women, he’s used the delegate votes from wife beating cultures to try to force pro-WO unions to do what he can’t convince them to do…the GC’s own minutes from as far back as 1877 say that a GC vote is only legitimate if it’s on something within its jurisdiction (ordination is not within the GC’s jurisdiction), and if it doesn’t trample on conscience (san antonio has very definitely trampled on conscience)…

thx to TW, we now have a knock 'em, sock 'em church, where the strongest side’s fist-fight victory is to be accepted by all in the name of christian unity…the ingredients for trust and unity aren’t in this approach…the prayers for unity offered by the GC aren’t even getting through the ceiling…the GC needs to reverse course completely…


(Andreas Bochmann) #33

And I have worked with Vietnam veterans on a trauma unit of a VA hospital… Your remark is explaining more than you have intended. You reveal the mind of a soldier. Your task has been to decimate (the enemy) efficiently - and very likely are proud of it. Yes, this does help me to understand your position. But, Sir, I serve a different Master, a different General, if you want. One who taught about wheat and tares. One who taught loving the enemy. One who allowed NT writers to say that revenge is not ours. One who held back Peter, when he pulled his sword. One who prayed for unity, not division. One who is knocking on the Laodizean door to celebrate communion, rather than burning the house. … It would be an insult to your Bible knowledge to list the Bible texts I am referring to. You know the texts. And I so much wish they would do something … healing … to your perspective.


#34

How about this kind?
“No man that warreth entangleth himself with the affairs of this life; that he may please him who hath chosen him to be a soldier.” 2 Tim 2:4:

We are compassionate soldiers of the spiritual forces of light. Our purpose is to establish, strengthen & restore relationships between God & humans.
In this endeavor we maximize love , life & freedom & counter suffering & lies.

My recruiting Marine NCO told me that it took 9 Marines to support a Marine in a line/infantry company.
I was one of those 9.

I do not have PTSD. I have what is implied in Hos 4:6, a sensitivity to those who are dying from inept teachers who minimize, avoid, trash God’s word & law.

I am not here to yank tares out of the SDA church. They will be incinerated by God’s glory.

BTW, modern warfare is more of an equalizer than centuries ago. An enemy scrawny 4’6" soldier can kill with an AK-47 any 6’ 5" muscular fit soldier


(Andreas Bochmann) #35

@gideonjrn … I do appreciate your openness and sharing from your life - it makes you a more genuine, dare I say more real person. I also appreciate your clarifications in terms of “compassionate soldier” and your desire to strengthen and restore relationships between God & humans, rather than yanking tares (sorry, your original statements gave a different impression to me). Your passion for the word is one that I have often read about here … and … would you believe - I share. And that is exactly why we need to listen to each other, see where we are coming from.
I didn’t mean to infer that you might have PTSD, but you hit the nail on the head — in that my reference to my VA experience (with lots of PTSD all around) was trying to tell you, where I am coming from. In todays day and age, where indeed no 6’5’’ muscular man can keep up with an AK-47, the militaristic language is very ambivalent and hard to transport. And a militaristic outlook in life is not mine, having grown up in a country responsible for two world wars. Thank you for listening (reading).


(Gerald McDonald) #36

It is being forgotten that there will not be those of the Church who will go out and cut off, those found wanting.
God did not do this when Israel was in the wilderness. He had given His people ample time and opportunity to change their hearts. He did not destroy without offering salvation. Look at the bronze snake that His people were instructed to look at to be saved.
And I’m absolutely sure that the way to win back those who have fallen is meant to be followed before any discipline is to be enacted.

But I am curious. Just what do you expect the Church, to do, when is is found that either a pastor of a church, or a member or members are teaching what is not Biblical?


(Eric Webster) #37

Nathan, thank you for your comment some time ago regarding Elder Wilson. When it comes to the criteria for a GC President for 2020 here are some qualities that are needed:
1. A great Christ-centered, biblical and grace-oriented preacher. One who does not string together numerous Ellen White quotes. She herself counceled, “preach the Word”. A preacher who would inspire and make Adventists feel proud.
2. A man or woman who has a pastors’ heart. One interested in every sheep in the fold, from the weakest to the strongest. One who is able to unite all elements in the church.
3. Someone who builds trust and confidence in all instead of sowing distrust and suspicion.
4. A person who has a solid background in Biblical understanding. Not one who has all the answers but is able to delegate and use all the talents in the church in the formation of doctrine.
5. We do not need a superman as GC president. There is a general feeling that we need to decentralise power and authority. The Unions need to be restored to their rightful place in line with the vision of 1901. With this in mind the GC can concentrate on world evangelism and in keeping all the Divisions united in their mission amidst their diversities.
6. I sensed a strong desire in the NAD Council meetings for some type of reorganisation of the church along the lines of 1901. Is the GC able to do that in 2020 or must they call on the NAD talent to work on that in conjunction with them. It is no doubt difficult for the GC to trim its own power and scope.
7. Let us pray for God’s special leading and guidance in providing a humble, Christ-centered, grace-orientated, Bible believing, servant-led shepherd as under-shepherd for the Great Shepherd for 2020.
Yours sincerely in Christ.


(Andreas Bochmann) #38

How did we deal with issues in the past? Pastors and church boards were dealing with members. Hopefully pastorally. Ministerial secretaries and conference boards were dealing with pastors. Hopefully pastorally. No need for additional structures. No need of moving things “upward” (and even if there was a need - it usually worked).

Just a couple of remarks as to the institutional level Battle Creek tried to deal with (rather than with members or individual pastors): For theological issues we used to have the BRI. I find it surprising, it never once appeared in all the discussions. Now … to be frank, I am not a particular friend of the BRI, as it rarely has been the host of open ended research, but rather a defender of foregone conclusions. But guess why the BRI as a “checks and balance” mechanism no longer appears (hint: there is no unity in refuting WO in the BRI)… Furthermore, none of those who spoke against the “unity documents” or “compliance committees” was opposed to regulating conflict in the church. But it has been pointed out that:

  • relevant and working mechanisms are already in place in our working policies

  • the topics selected for the committees give a certain weight to sensitive issues, while blissfully ignoring much bigger ones (e.g. “homosexuality” vs. “sexual abuse”, certainly not starting with finances, principles of accounting etc. here, let alone theological issues such as LGT, headship etc.)

  • the selection process of who is on the committee is weighted (mostly GC administrators rahter than experts in the field - e.g. creation committee has no scientist or OT scholar on board who is not on the payroll of the GC)

  • the naming and shaming of people (elected presidents) is both inappropriate and inefficient

  • the “report! - requirement” will foster mistrust and suspicion, unworthy of followers of Christ and certainly further enhances a hierarchical model of church governance, which is diametrically opposed to our historic stance and the protestant idea of freedom of conscience.

  • finally the desired unity will not be the result of this new process - but rather the opposite.

The last point is easily observed already (a quick look into social media should suffice).


(Nkosi) #39

Those are bold sentiments , are you now claiming the prerogative of the Holy Spirit. You now know where prayers are going. Not making it past the ceiling? I think you should check your steps. maybe you have pushed this issue too hard. don’t you think it’s time to step back reflect and let others air their views?


(George Tichy) #40

That was the inauguration of the “KGC” era that now has an army of five divisions of Kompliance Kommandos. Ready to attack the Church.

Great article, so well written and comprehensive. It pictures exactly what the sad reality of our Church is now. A Church reduced to pieces by a leader who threatens with “grave consequences” those who “dare” to not submit to his kommand. A leader who supports discrimination of women, and would do the unthinkable to impose his personal views to the Church.

Sorry, no “Heil Ted” from me!


(George Tichy) #41

Jeremy, at what age did Castro retire? My point being that dictators (just look in history) do not just retire. They either die while still reigning or they are ousted.

I wouldn’t be so sure that TW is planning to retire in 2020. I bet he is already preparing a “support group” that will keep his name on the top of the list and then he will say that he cannot refuse the call from God or ignore the conviction of the Holy Spirit; therefore, he will make the “ultimate sacrifice” and will accept the nomination to continue being the “kommander in chief.”

If he only announced that he will retire in 2020! This would defuse great part of the tension he created in the Church. But I doubt he would ever do such a thing. Dictators do not do this!!!