Regional Conference Leadership Meets with Ted Wilson Concerning His Annual Council Remarks


(Tim Teichman) #61

It has already been done. I accept this definition and support it wholeheartedly:


(Tim Teichman) #62

Sure why not? There are many ways to be involved other than showing up at a rally or similar event. Maybe I work all day every day (common) and so can’t attend.

Here are 8 ways to be involved that are appreciated at least by some:


#63

Well, I actually happened to be born and grow up in the USSR. My grandparents were exiled to Middle Eastern Part of the USSR because they happened to be guilty of crime of owning two cows and sizable piece of land (of course being Jewish didn’t help either)

Justification for that were the same appeals to Social Justice that these men were executing on behalf of the “mistreated masses” that didn’t have cows. So, it’s different tune, but the same lyrics, only in different language, of course. So, “privileged aristocracy”, “greedy”, “exploitative”, etc.

I actually arrived in the US alone with a $100 in my pocket when I was 15, and went to mostly-black school and had to grind to get a sports scholarship to get some shot of education which I had to balance with sports and working at 4 AM after getting back from games as 1AM at times…to cover the gap… but that still puts me in the clan of “straight, white, privileged male”.

So, this ideology of “social justice” is ludicrous, because it’s essentially “guilt by association” coupled with “victimhood by associations”, which is not how justice works, so a modifier of “social” had to be appended, because simply “justice” won’t do. You see no one will ever believe that one is automatically guilty of something simply because they are lumped into a group.

Sorry George. It’s same old thing in different place done to different people using the same old tactics. Lived through it, and I recognize it when I see it.


(Dwayne Turner) #64

Timteichman,

I checked out your list… you represented these 8 points so being an example of how you can “be involved other than showing up at a rally or similar event”. Yet, only the first 2 points are passive in nature. Points 3 - 8 involve showing up and participating actively. If you only undertook points 1 & 2 you could never be considered “heavily involved” or involved at all, for that matter. Using your list… which I think speaks comprehensibly to what’s involved with a social justice movement… I ask again… whether to you are any other takers… Name just one time when Jesus was involved in anything remotely relatable to what is described in your list. Expand that to include just one instance where Ellen White was involved in something like your list describes.

I must say this… not necessarily to you… but to anyone, including the author of this article… Why are there only claims as to what Jesus, Ellen White, James White, and Uriah Smith did in the line of Social Justice… but no actual examples… to answer my challenge? I have written information, worthy of examination or refutation, but still have seen nothing to rebut it. If Jesus was such a Social Justice activist and/or warrior shouldn’t there be plenty of stories in scripture to substantiate such a claim?


(Peter Gatoru) #65

You must have read it in Matthew 25:31-46
Here again for your convenience;
The description of the last judgement:
31When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:32And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:33And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.34Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:35For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:36Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.37Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?38When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?39Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?40And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.41Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:42For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:43I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.44Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?45Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.46And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.


(Peter Gatoru) #66

It should be noted that it’s Jesus who said we should be the light and salt to the world. Our public conduct must stand out.
On evil… Jesus said; just like it was in the days of Noah so shall it be before the coming of the son of man, Matthew 24:37-39 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,

39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
That is for issues raised on the comment regarding right and wrong based on the Bible and whether it is at all relevant today.


(William Noel) #67

That’s a fair point to discuss. Let’s dissect it.

The concept of “fair and just relations between the individual and society” is almost a direct quote from the “Communist Manifesto” and is the central theme of many books and articles by people who continually have redefined the concepts of what is “fair” and “just.” Those terms are always defined in changing terms that studiously avoid any basis in the principles of scripture or the clear statements of God because the authors are venomously anti-faith and reject Divine authority.

The functional definition of “fair and just” is always changing and typically is based on what is politically popular. Look at what politicians, primarily Democrats, were advocating as “fair and just” decades ago and you will quickly see that it is very different from today. It used to be that Democrats were against murder in any form and opposed to the killing of those not yet born, yet today is is one of the primary causes they defend because it “fair and just” and “women’s health” even though half those killed are female.

Point Two is the “explicit and tacit terms for the distribution of wealth.” Distribution of wealth, actually the redistribution of wealth from the middle class and affluent by force of law, is perhaps the most central concept of Socialism, which calls for all wealth to be taken from those who have it and given to those whom government officials say deserve to receive it. This reduces the ability of individuals to enjoy the fruits of their labors. In every nation where it has been enforced it has eliminated the motivation to work hard and everyone has sunk into poverty. The most dramatic example of that today is Venezuela where the Chavez/Maduro regime has rigidly imposed Cuban-style Socialism/Communism. I was reading an article today about how more than 2 million Venezuelans have fled the country just to survive. Their economy is in such severe ruin that the average person is losing ten pounds or more a year because of lack of food, inflation is running at more than 4,000 percent per years, hospitals and medical clinics have no medicine to help the sick, people are dying from easily treatable disease and the costs of funerals are so high that people are resorting to burying their dead in back yard gardens.

I disagree with the statement about Western and Asian cultures because it is a wild misstatement based on an illusions.

In contrast, in scripture the concept of justice is an integral part of society but there is ZERO discussion in scripture about claims of justice being used to change social policy. God gives us clear instructions about obeying His law and us being judged or blessed according to our obedience. Justice itself is describe only in judicial terms where the standard is God’s law and justice provides relief to those who have suffered from the unlawful acts of others by punishing the guilty and ordering resitution. The only model we have in scripture of taking from one to give to another is how the Israelites were to support the Levites, who did not own land so their living came from what others earned.

The claims of Socialism and social justice are alluring. After all, who really can resist the temptation of receiving what is taken from someone else by force of law without having to earn it. That isn’t justice, that’s theft under the guise of law and the Ten Commandments tell us to not covet what others have or steal. Socialism and social justice promote class division and hatred because they pit the “haves” against those who do not have something social justice advocates focus on and claim that the “have-nots” need, even that it is essential for them to improve their financial status in society.

People are discovering that “social justice” isn’t as good as people have claimed. For example, the idea of a $15 minimum wage has been promoted by leading Socialists like Sen. Bernie Sanders as “social justice.” When it became law in Seattle the immediate result was a loss of jobs and a major shrinking in the number of people available to work in the hospitality industry. Many restaurants and even hotels have closed. Fast food restaurants are replacing people with computers and automated production equipment. In France, fighting the illusion of man-caused global climate change has been championed as a social justice cause, including raising taxes on fuels. For two weeks now the news has been filled with stories about how French workers are protesting against it because they’re the ones stuck with paying the bill instead of “the rich.”

No, social justice is not the good thing it looks like on the surface. It is one of the most seductive and socially destructive sophistries of our time.


(William Noel) #68

It is tempting to point-out what is happening and doing nothing to draw people out of it. Jesus didn’t tell us to just go around teaching about prophecy and end-time events. He told His followers to go and do good works in the power of the Holy Spirit so people would be drawn into loving God.


(GMCald) #69

George,

Sorry about not tagging you. Honestly, since I replied to your comment directly, I would have thought that Spectrum would have identified for you.

Considering your history, I am a little surprised you don’t keep up with the current socialist movements in US. The current social justice movement, being pushed by universities and now Spectrum, is wrapped in all sorts of Marxist perspectives. You can’t swing a dead cat on YouTube without noticing the hammer and sickle and Che Guevara shirts everywhere you see BLM or Antifa. Shouldn’t the fact that the first formal socialist politician has made into the House (and a huge social justice supporter) not set off some sort of alarms in your head? Identity politics and social justice are the old communist ideas all over again. If you can’t see it, then you aren’t looking. Have a good weekend.


(GMCald) #70

Well…I have re-read it. I think it actually says exactly what I wanted it to say.

Dude, you are missing and confusing a bunch of points. Being oppressed and being poor isn’t the same thing. Being an orphan and being oppressed isn’t the same thing. Being a single parent and being oppressed isn’t the same thing. It does not mean that none of these people don’t deserve mercy, but you are confusing mercy and justice. You can’t look at a poor person and just say they are oppressed. There is a lot of ways a person can be poor that is their own fault. Not finishing high school, not having a job, getting pregnant without having a husband. These are decisions that you can make that will make you poor without the need for being oppressed or the requirement for justice.

If you are in NEED of Justice, it means that you have been wronged. That something that belongs to you has been taken away and there is an agent of some sort that is responsible. That is why Justice is represented by SCALES, two sides needing balance. The injured and the perpetrator of the injury.

The fact that you grew up in a communist country and yet don’t see the dangers of the current social justice movement, both in the US and now seemingly in the church, makes me concerned. People who support social justice, like yourself, are happy to take whole groups of people - the down trodden in society and say they are owed “justice”, but for that to happen it means that you must be ready point to those groups who you perceive are responsible for the injustice and making them pay. I don’t care about Marx’s heritage. I don’t care where he got his inspiration. Social justice is the perspective that people as a group have been wronged and that other groups are therefore the oppressors and must pay…usually at the point of a gun. It happened in the USSR, China, Zimbabwe and now in South Africa. Where ever people are willing to take identity politics and it’s near cousin, social justice, into the political landscape, people have died. The fact that you have lived it and are still okay with it being promoted as a reasonable theological perspective is simply stunning.


(George Tichy) #71

I wish you the best luck in a country where “vulture capitalism” is now now gradually implemented. Which means the disappearance of the middle class, leaving a very small group of very rich people keeping a vast proletariat class working for them. Those are the people who don’t like the minimum wage, because it is currently “too high” and they want to eliminate.

If you see any difference between communism and vulture capitalism, I don’t. Except one being able to leave the country or not.

For those who make it to the rich level, vulture capitalism is sweet. For those who don’t, it’s sweat! There is no social justice in either communism or vulture capitalism.

I love America, been here for 29 years now, proud citizen. But no, I don;'t want this vulture capitalism that is being implemented by Trump now. Giving 1.3 Tri to the rich, then saying that SS, Medicare, and Medicaid have to be eliminated…, well…, this doesn’t sound like taking care of “the people.”

But, all this, is just my opinion…


(George Tichy) #72

I am sorry you feel this way.
Social Justice within a Democratic Socialism (Scandinavian Style) system has nothing to do with Marxism or Communism. It’s sad that so many people consider Communism, Nazism, Democratic Socialism, and Fascism to be all the same thing. Maybe they should ask the Scandinavians how is their life like, and why are they considered the happiest people on earth…


(Tihomir Odorcic) #73

This is not a reply to @Greenmile, because our further discussion has no sense. I am only sorry to see that people who profess to be Christians are so far from christianity’s very source - Jesus Christ. They surely know the story of merciful Samaritan, but are more interested in seeking an excuse for their neglecting the one in need. This post of mine is more a question for the president of the GC. The question is: Can it be that you, Elder Wilson, support such deviant and merciless positions? Do you, Mr president of the GC of SDA, when you say “stay away from social justice” mean that we should let suffer all those who because of their laziness, bad choices, poor decisions of theirs and of their parents have fallen short of many advantages we enjoy. Should we therefore let them suffer and say: This is for your bad choices. You have to reap what you have sown. Is this what you mean when you say “stay away from social justice”?
Please, will someone send him this question. I would like to know his answer. Maybe @Greenmile has a connection to him and could ask him on my behalf. The answer would be of great help for many in disprivileged countries who are so loyal to him, because then they will surely open their eyes.


(George Tichy) #74

Good luck getting an answer, or any word from that man if you are a Spectrumite… :wink:


(Tihomir Odorcic) #75

There is also a sort of rhetoric questions :interrobang:️. But I wouldn’t be surprised if TW could not have a categorical “no” to my questions. After all he is a good friend and dependant of ASI.


(reliquum) #76

Curious isn’t it, though, that he sent one, a Samarian, an unfaitful adulterer, a WOMAN sitting on the edge of a well into ministry, before the twelve knuckleheads were ready to enter the Levant. Wonder why? They (the knuckleheads) weren’t ready to share the ham and cheese gyro they just fetched from the Sychar PigglyWiggly for Jesus, let alone sharing anything meaningful, like love, salvation, hope. “Sir”, they asked, “have you eaten” -clear inference they meant “surely you aren’t going to share with HER”. They, too, thought they knew-and perhaps believed they were inevitably exclusive purveyors of, the “scope and parameters” of Jesus intentions.

I suggest this phenom, Photina, evangelist extraordiaire, showed them.
I’ll also ask you ponder, why didn’t Jesus tell the knuckleheads to tell the villagers to come to the well for living water, since they were all going there, anyway-and were almost complete with their seminary training?
Don’t let inconvenient amazing facts get in your way

I would urge caution to anyone portending to fathom and then mete out with such imperative/definitive (and almiost portentous) words as
“full scope and parameters” of Jesus ministry.
Is. 55 might be fitting place for refresher reading…


(GMCald) #77

Holy smokes…George. You think the Nordic model is socialism. Really? Dude, you need to go back and take an actual economics class. The Nordic countries have a capitalist economy and a bunch of welfare programs. Their welfare programs are funded by a combination of super high personal taxes, low corporate taxes and the ability to have a minimal defence because NATO (Mostly funded by the US) has historically protected them from being Russia’s inclusion into the Motherland. Again, with your families background, you should know better.


(Tim Teichman) #78

4,5 and 7 involve showing up. The rest you can do without leaving your house - and collectively they are more effective than 4,5 and 7.

Not on the list is using your public voice - the way celebrities do. That is something both Jesus and the founders did by making written statements and through oral teaching. Calling for justice (or whatever the cause) when you have a public voice is active.

What is your problem with social justice? I’ve read several of your posts and it’s like Greek to me.

Well, first just because you wrote something doesn’t mean anyone here has a duty of some sort to respond. I don’t see any merit in your arguments and, again, have a hard time understanding why you’re grinding away on this topic and what your point or goal in doing so is.

Others have posted cogent responses to your claims, several times. But instead of acknowledging them fully you continue to drive this point of active participation, which makes no sense to me.

One of the most effective ways to help an organized movement is to write a check. It always has been and always will be.


(George Tichy) #79

Oh Yeah…, that for sure. First place he went to preach after his inauguration in 2010. To get their blessings and make sure that the money would keep running…

Image result for image faucet running money


(Steve Mga) #80

George –
Did Odorcic mean
Dependent of ASI or
Dependent ON ASA
???