My apologies to you too if I “interfered” with your conversation… Honestly, I was not aware it was private… Sorry for the serious offense…
Calling it a conversion is presumptive. I just can’t believe you’d write that.
It was indeed intentional sarcasm well disguised…
It must be the Clinton’s!..
This is now the most recent conventional conspiracy theory… Or maybe the Obama’s?
@GeorgeTichy you mean it wasn’t the Kennedy’s! I never would have guessed.
Maybe “El Chapo,” who is now a secret agent hired by Trump to “clean the swamp” in the prison system? … WDYT? …
I believe you verdict is correct. I have read his side of the story and it has the ring of truth.
Many years ago I wrote here on Spectrum that the true story about Kellogg had yet to be written. It has not yet been done.
The accusation of pantheism was a powerful virtual machine gun used to eliminate a person who had the information and the intellectual ability to expose certain details about the so-called “spirit of prophecy” that had to be hidden.
Later on Daniels had to be eliminated. And several others more. Then, finally, in the late 70’s and early 80’s Rea, Numbers, Paxton, and others could not be hit and the truth surfaced.
Ford was probably the biggest threat ever. He was eliminated quasi-successfully, but his intellectual work could not be “archived.” Anyone has access to the info that, despite the Church’s effort in contrary, was revealed in a very systematic format about 40 years ago.
did you get the opportunity to read the book when its site was posted some time
John Harvey was a Panentheist, NOT a Pantheist.
The many persons who contributed to the 150 Psalms were Panentheists.
Living with mystery leads to discovery, if we dig hard enough. I generally “discover” things that I heard long ago and didn’t take the time to check out thoroughly enough to accept. Such as, in the OT, at least, the Jews never meant the seventh day of the calendar week when they spoke of the “seventh day” because their calendars had no weeks. Or that the rest God took from creating couldn’t be a rest day because all of His days are resting from creating, while Israel rejects His invitation to enter it.
Gen 1 describes God’s actions during the creation period, and that period was not seven days, it was six. Each of the creation days involved four “time words”,
- a lighted period ,“day”, during which God created,
- a moment of transition, “evening” meaning sundown,
- a dark period, night
- a moment of transition, “morning” meaning sunup.
Notice that evening came half-way through each day, not at the beginning. AFTER God said, “Let there be light” and called the light day. He only commanded that one sabbath a year be kept beginning at sundown, and THAT SABBATH WAS NOT THE SEVENTH DAY SABBATH.
32 It shall be unto you a sabbath of rest, and ye shall afflict your souls: **IN THE NINTH DAY OF THE MONTH AT EVEN, FROM EVEN TO EVEN, SHALL YE KEEP YOUR SABBATH [singular]. (Lev 23:32)
(I’m not sure yet when the Jews began to keep all sabbaths from even to even.)
The seventh day of this narrative–and the eighth, and the ninth, etc., are obviously not sabbaths. It would be unreal for there to be a sabbath without a thundering announcement, “BEHOLD, THE FIRST SABBATH” followed by countless words of honor that the first Sabbath would deserve.
There is important information typically missing from our Sabbath teachings:
- The Sabbath silence in Genesis.
- The Bible’s reason for the Sabbath:
And remember that thou wast a servant in the land of Egypt, and that the LORD thy God brought thee out thence through a mighty hand and by a stretched out arm: THEREFORE THE LORD THY GOD COMMANDETH THEE to keep the sabbath day. ( Deut 5:15)
- The declaration that no Sabbath commandment was given before the Exodus.
The LORD made not this covenant with our fathers, but with us, even us, who are all of us here alive THIS DAY. (Deut 5:3)
the gods of the Babylonians, Greeks [then the Philistines], Egyptians,
Romans were gods of “work”. Created humans to wait on them, do their
The God of Israel was a God of Rest. Rest before creating. Rest after
creating. Forced rest periods every 7 days. they had worked for 490
years as slaves, now it was time to rest. To learn to rest.
But most of all God wanted them to enter an emotional, spiritual rest
in Him. But they missed it. And the book of Hebrews calls us still to
that most important “Rest”.
I like this definition of “Rest” given by Paul in 2 Cor 6:10 – We are
considered as sorrowful, we who are always rejoicing. As poor, we
who make many people rich. As having nothing, we who possess
And as Mary reports about herself – “My soul praises the Lord and
my spirit rejoices in God my Savior.” – Luke 1:46.
I think this is a bit of psychologizing the gospel, Steve. In Hebrews 4, the ultimate focus on rest is the incomplete nature of the rest in the land, or the rest of the seventh day…things that spelled out covenant, religious, and ethnic identity. What the writer is saying is that relying on, or turning back to this, is to miss the fullness of the rest that came into the world with the Messiah Jesus. He was the fulfillment of the rest in the land and in holy time for Israel…something that these things could only pre-figure. Turning back to these for belonging and identity would be turning away from Jesus. That’s the warning…something that SDA’s, with our own peculiar belief system, should listen well to.
The individual emotional and spiritual benefits, while outflows on a personal level, are not what the passage, and the book seem to have as their primary concerns.
This Hebrews 4 is referencing Psalm 95.
Vs 11 – Therefore in my anger I swore, They shall not
enter My rest.
[So the Hebrew writer says there is STILL a Rest for
the people of God to enter into.]
On a new essay to read on Spectrum, the writer alludes to
2 Tim 3:16 – All Scripture.
For the writer of 2 Timothy [Paul] the ONLY Scripture was
the Old Testament Canon.
Nothing New Testament was Scripture.
What do we do with THAT?
What do you think the writer is referring to here? What is the “rest” that we enter into?
The NT writers weren’t conscious of compiling what would later be called Scripture. But, they were very conscious of showing that Jesus was the Messiah and the climax of Israel’s story, and the fulfillment of the scriptural narrative that told that story. And, they were very intentional in laying out what that meant for the renewed community of Jews and Gentiles, and how they were to live and relate as God’s new creation in Christ, in this present age.
The OT is totally summed up in Jesus and his bringing of God’s gracious rule, surpassing anything that came before. This is what the passage of Hebrews was really all about. I would say it is what the entire NT is driving at. I think that’s a way forward with what we can do with what you brought up.
If you read this in the context of the letter, it’s clear that he is pointing them to Christ and the rest of the messianic age as the ultimate rest to which they are being called. Christ was greater than creation rest on the seventh day, Christ was greater than the rest brought by Joshua and the possession of the land, greater than Moses, greater than the temple, greater than the Levitical priesthood, and any animal sacrifice they offered, greater than the prophets, greater than angels and angelology, etc.
They had already experienced this, and were flirting with going back to their former lives and worship as their main identity as the people of God. The warning was, don’t turn back. Follow Jesus outside the gates of the city. To seek covenant identity and belonging based on their prior ethnic and religious distinctives would be tantamount to abandoning Christ.
The call to enter into God’s rest was for those who were turning away to come back, and for those Jews who had yet to heed the call to Christ, to come and enter the rest of Israel’s Messiah. Thus Ps. 95, “Today if you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts.”
I guess that’s the call for everyone! @cfowler
Well said, Frank!
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