Responses from Church Entities to GC’s Compliance Attempts and Timeline of Key Events

Elmer, it appears that @Eugen is acting the missionary here under the false assumption that with the power of intellect and argument he can collect converts to a sterile and loveless form of religion, but fails to realize we’ve already been there and have already done that.


I would also add…laboring under the false assumption of some sort of “superiority” to boot. :slight_smile:


And, you are saying that men and women come in different sizes–acceptable and unacceptable. Worthy for spiritual leadership and unworthy for spiritual leadership. Some fit in the kitchen and some fit in the pulpit. It’s indeed size, isn’t it?

Your gloating is unattractive.

Take care and God bless!


There is always a way out and it depends on our leaders to lead the way. But we get from leaders only the kind of abilities they bring to the table. It is obvious that our current GC leaders do not have the cognitive ability to reframe events due to their upbringing. Listening to Dr Ng was a stunning lesson on how childhood experience can mold our personality traits as when he reiterated many times that he was raised to be compliant. We raised our children with the end goal of separating and be independent from us. So what do you expect if a child is raised to only be compliant? He grows into adulthood thinking only in terms of compliance or not. And what if he becomes the secretary of the GC? A world agenda lacking in empathy but brimming with compliance. The only way out of this dilemma is a full changing of the guards. Perhaps in a generation or two. Until then our church will maintain splintered either formally or informally, makes no difference.


This is basic Christianity with nothing groundbreaking or new. If, after a lifetime of church going and service, this is what she and her husband realized was revolutionary in their Christian experience it demonstrates how shallow their experience with God had been up to that point.

Seriously this was obvious to me as a child growing up and as they say here in Japan is a Christian ‘atarimae’. It boils down to doing things for appearances vs. actually putting the practice to heart. Anyone who is baptized should have been instructed along these lines.

The real leap is that this practice somehow saves you and makes you fit for the kingdom. “The heart is desperately wicked, who can know it” is the reality we live in and is where Grace is necessary. How do you judge your motives or what is right and wrong? Is this based on your cultural norm and through your interpretation of the Bible leads you to be able to recognize temptation?

I can remember growing up and being told that if you get into the swimming pool on the sabbath any deeper than your ankles you are sinning. That on the Sabbath anything any activity engage in which brings pleasure or enjoyment was wrong (yeah I grew up in Northern Minnesota). Or that asking too many questions about a Bible topic or the interpretation of that was a sin. Or that any voluntary or involuntary consumption of unclean food was a one way ticket to hell. Or that because it was Jesus who made wine as his first miracle that it was ok for people to drink even though we are admonished not to and that it was created by the devil. Or that the unforgivable sin was so terrible that it couldn’t be spoken of and thus was a mystery as to what it was and any one of us may already have committed this unawares and are forever doomed. You get the idea.

This approach while completely accurate is also dangerous because for many they use this for a piety contest. I have seen many after learning about this to become completely self absorbed and fearful every moment of the day lest they engage in some selfish motive or action. They lament their lack of faithfulness and apparent lack of piety to the point where it causes abnormal behavior. Others in despair can’t keep up with all the sinning they do and give up entirely.

But the problem with this is that it places the act of salvation primarily in the hand of the individual who must keep up with any conscious or unconscious act to ask forgiveness for. That God keeps strict tabs and watches with keen interest in recording any misdeed. Thus you get to a point where the mind is exhausted and the spirit so downtrodden that in despair one concludes it is impossible.

So I would dare you to examine in exacting detail any and all thoughts, motives, or actions that you have in a given day and see if you can keep up as is described.


With this type of ‘compliant’ level of thinking it will cause many to turn to more and more rules. The will be
a flurry of interpretations of scripture to more narrowly define with precision the exacting requirements of any given behavior in life or practice or church governance. We will serve the rules and through the guise of Present Truth teach others to do the same so we are all compliant in one grand ideology.


You’re so right. Case in point 5 Review Committees. That’s an overkill.

I watched the whole session and remember someone saying “this can be solved right now” without the time, drama and animosity involved. Although that might be true, it could not happen under the watch of our current leaders whose priorities are rules and procedures, not results. I’m sure you have known of individuals who cannot thrive without crisis or drama. Well, this crop of GC officers are proving to be of the same vein.

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I will not provide support of any kind to any conference or union that supports King Ted. My answer will always be - do they support Ted?
I will not support anyone who has signed loyalty pledges to him.


Should people join a specific church in a specific or should they join a denomination? That’s entirely a different understanding of baptism into Adventism,isn’t it?


Hey Elaine, great hearing from you again!

Are you sure your heart is OK? You need a good one to follow the craziness happening right now as result of the AC/18, after the insane vote on Sunday (yesterday) approving to make the GC a super power that can wreck the whole Church.

Guess what? The “world church” dictating again what we should do here. Just insane.

Best to be a member of (any) a local church than to become contaminated by the poison coming from the GC at this time. Actually, the KGC was just given green light by that vote! You know exactly what I mean, right?

WDYT about centralized power in the hands of Ted Wilson???

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See. Where the doctrine of Investigative Judgment leads.


Just because a truth is uttered by an evil person does not make that truth any less true.


We learn that it is typical for religious leaders to be dead wrong, up to, and including killing God.

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I would like to encourage everyone to read an article that appeared in our very own SPECTRUM Magazine in its Summer 2015, VOLUME 43 ISSUE 3. As one may easily guess this issue was dealing with the aftermaths of the beloved 2015 San Antonio GC Session. Under the titel “What happens next?” Mitchell Tyner analyzes on pages 75 to 79 the legal situation of the WO issue. He concluded with what is still valid today:

In the meantime, we can only hope that calm, settled reason will trump fundamentalist fervor.

May I add that we find such fervor on both sides of the issue.

The North American Division requested the 1995 GC Session:

The General Conference vests in each division the right to authorize the ordination of individuals within its territory in harmony with established policies. In addition, where circumstances do not render it inadvisable, a division may authorize the ordination of qualified individuals without regard to gender. In divisions where the division executive committees take specific actions approving the ordination of women to the gospel ministry, women may be ordained to serve in those divisions.

Thus, it has set a precedent that it now does not like to be reminded of:

  • It acknowledged the power of the GC Session to decide the issue
  • It acknowledged it did not have the right to decide the issue on its own

Today, it seems, the NAD holds a view just opposite to the one it once held.

Finally, here is how the church has moved:

  • In 1995 the NAD motion was rejected with 1,481 to 673 votes, i.e. a whopping 68.7% or more than a two thirds majority.
  • 20 years later, in 2015 that vote had shifted to 1,381 to 977, i.e. 58.5% or still a significant majority.
  • The 2018 AC vote now came in at 185 to 124, i.e. 59.8% or the church vote hasn’t changed significantly since 2015.

So we better heed brother Tyner’s advice.

Putting these three votes together AS IF there were on the same subject is either,

  1. Product of reading deficiency, or
  2. Deficiency in comprehension of a written text, or
  3. Ill intentioned act to misinform and mislead people, or
  4. A total disregard to people’s intelligence, or
  5. All the above, or
  6. What else could it be???

I vote for option 5 with special emphasis on Item 3


Possibly…option #5? Or even an added option #7 “Who cares”? :grinning:

Dear @GeorgeTichy ,
as @JohnCarson has pointed out it is #6 and I may even add what else it is:
You simply cannot stomach the facts.

What the delegates in 1995 had to vote on I have already cited above. Just go there and read it again.
Here is what the delegates voted on in 2015:

After your prayerful study on ordination from the Bible, the writings of Ellen G. White, and the reports of the study commissions, and after your careful consideration of what is best for the church and the fulfillment of its mission, is it acceptable for division executive committees, as they may deem it appropriate in their territories, to make provision for the ordination of women to the gospel ministry? Yes or No?

The UOC proposal now voted into action by the GCC deals - among others - very prominently with the issue of compliance to the GC Session decisions of 1995 and 2015.
So two of the three votes were directly on the issue of WO AND the right of divisions or unions to decide that issue on their own. The third concerned the compliance to it.

So, on what factual ground do you rant in the way you have done?
You have none - and you know it.

For all those looking on:
This is NOT - I repeat NOT - arguing against WO but against breaking the rules as set by the GC Session(s).

If one does not want to play by the rules then at least one should have the courage to say so openly. It would make discussion much simpler.

Take care and God bless.

@Eugen this is conflation. The votes were directly about Division ability to do what is not within their jurisdiction. As the Divisions are actually a subset of the GC, both votes are out of order and akin to the left hand asking the right hand if it can clap. The Unions have sole authority with regards to ordination.


Posting just so we are clear about current organizational authority and responsibility as set forth in the “Working Policy” or SDA Church Manual. This is found on page 41, Section B re: Organization & Administration.