Son of Man
Paul calls Christ Jesus the Second Adam.
The First Born of the Humans.
So it seems like either one of the descriptions is correct.
Harry, I appreciate your exalted view of our Lord. But in spite of sharing such a view, I am confronted with the fact that thousands of years later He takes a much bigger step down and becomes man. It was Daniel and Luke who records him as “Son of man” by the way.
It is a characteristic of the Godhead to step down and to give the "other " credit, ex= Holy spirit comes in the name of Jesus and anonymously exalts him to the believer. He does not speak of himself but relates what Jesus wants Him to say. ( see John 14,15,16) So I see Jesus stepping down to keep angels from rebelling, yes, with a measure of success; 2/3rds stayed. Michael= the one like God.
Dan.7: 13, 14 gives us the concept /prefigured of Christ born of mankind/woman receiving His Kingdom as “son of man” in His peoples behalf at His ascension.
Here, it is said that The Lord (Jesus Christ), God, appeared to Moses as “the angel of the Lord”:
“Now Moses kept the flock of Jethro his father in law, the priest of Midian: and he led the flock to the backside of the desert, and came to the mountain of God, even to Horeb. And the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed. And Moses said, I will now turn aside, and see this great sight, why the bush is not burnt. And when the Lord saw that he turned aside to see, God called unto him out of the midst of the bush, and said, Moses, Moses. And he said, Here am I. And he said, Draw not nigh hither: put off thy shoes from off thy feet, for the place whereon thou standest is holy ground. Moreover he said, I am the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses hid his face; for he was afraid to look upon God.” (Exodus3:1-6.KJV)
“And the Lord said unto him, This is the land which I sware unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, saying, I will give it unto thy seed: I have caused thee to see it with thine eyes, but thou shalt not go over thither. So Moses the servant of the Lord died there in the land of Moab, according to the word of the Lord. And he buried him in a valley in the land of Moab, over against Bethpeor: but no man knoweth of his sepulchre unto this day.” (Deu34:4-6.KJV)
“And he shewed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the Lord, and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him. And the Lord said unto Satan, The Lord rebuke thee, O Satan; even the Lord that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire?” (Zech3:1-2.KJV)
“Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.” (Jude1:9.KJV)
The distinction in Jude is that no accusation was made against the devil to resolve the dispute (judgment comes at the end of time) but he was simply rebuked from interferring with what The Lord was about to do. This is not a distiction between what Michael cannot do versus what The Lord can do.
Jude is reminding these believers that their goal is not warring against the ungodly, but rather pursuing their relationship with God. He makes the point that the judgment of the ungodly is reserved “unto the judgment of the great day.” But rather, “Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.” (Jude1:21.KJV)
†
Judgement against satan came at the cross. Jn.16:11
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“And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.”(Jude1:6.KJV)
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Even in the Wilderness after His baptism, Jesus did not ARGUE with
the Devil. All He did was QUOTE SCRIPTURE.
I don’t think that’s the issue here at all. The story makes no mention of the knowledge of good or of the knowledge of evil. It’s the knowledge of the spectrum in it’s entirety that God left out of their design.
This story is akin to the parable of the importunate widow that pictures God as ultimately doing the right thing for the wrong reason. Not at all like Him. My guess is that the parable of the talking snake isn’t true to reality, either. (Snakes don’t talk–and there’s no ventriloquising Satan in this story.) I don’t like this story because it represents God as punishing A&E for lacking an important kind of knowledge–including the knowledge that it’s improper to run around naked, a lack that the forbidden fruit also supplied.
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Jesus called him the father of lies, and there was no truth in him. He simply cannot tell the truth.
This gets down to the very nature of what telling truth is. If one views it simply as the relating of facts accurately, then truth telling is simply that, no more, no less. Telling a lie would be to add, or omit information that alters the factual picture.
However, if telling the truth has to do with motive and intent, then this throws a different light on what it means to speak truth or to lie. Samuel told David to tell Saul that he was coming up to sacrifice for the Passover. Was that the real reason? Did Samuel tell David to lie? Why did he tell David to conceal the reason he was coming up? Did what Samuel told David to do actually fall inside the realm of truth telling? Why or why not?
Rahab told the men after the Hebrew spies that they had fled in a certain direction, while they were still hidden in her house. Was this a lie? If so, why does Hebrews say that she acted in faith? How does this relate to speaking the truth?
An elementary school boy comes to school and tells his teacher that he is late because his father worked all night and couldn’t get him there earlier. The teacher knows that the father is a raging alcoholic, and was probably on a drunken binge. He knows that the boy doesn’t know. Would truth telling be about telling the boy what he knows about his father and contradicting his story, or withholding the information?
This is quite an issue. In this type of context, Satan spoke a lie…that may have had some factual information. A lie can never be truth.
Thanks…
Frank
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Frank it sounds like you are talking about the American media here. They leave out facts to slant every story to push a agenda.
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“Third, from Revelation 12 the story marches on toward chapter 20 in a way that resembles narrative conventions in modern literature. And yet most scholars, as I hope to show some weeks from now, arrive almost empty-handed in chapter 20. In that chapter, Satan is bound, which is just fine with most readers (Revelation 20:1-3). It is about time! But then he is released (20:7-9)! Indeed, the narrator says that “he must be released” (20:3). At that point, most readers are confounded. They have been dismissive of Satan in the first place, and they have had periods of inattention. As a result, the binding and release of Satan in chapter 20 generates some of the wildest comments on the book. We could make this an assignment from chapter 12 onward: Why must Satan be released after the thousand years (20:3)?”
Dr. Tonstad,
I would like to suggest that the reason satan is bound and then released is simply to expose him for who and what he is. He is described so that we can know who our ancient foe is and not be deceived by him. Paul says satan can transform himself into an angel of light. The book of revelation is (IMO) a book about his attempts to deceive us (transform himself). When we see him for what he is, we will finally be able to stand on the sea of glass having victory over the beast, the image, and the mark.
You can’t just keep repeating that Jesus is Michael…over and over…and say it must be.
There is no proof in The Bible of such a thing. John, who knew Jesus…would certainly know who Jesus is. God’s Son? Or an angel? No matter how you slice it, and archangel is indeed, an angel. Maybe we have some mistranslated stuff here, but Jesus cannot be an angel. Os if Michel is indeed an angel, then he cannot be Jesus. Other denominations have a field day with us on this. Jesus was not even a messenger. He was the subject of messengers. Sure, He had a message, but not as an angel. Nowhere does The Bible state that Michael was anything but an angel. God went to war with Gideon and Gideon was the victor. No way could anyone conclude from that, that Gideon was God.
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Continuing the discussion from Revelation 12: Don’t Rush at Ground Zero:
Patrick, you make a good point: Satan WAS defeated on the cross. Jesus posed as Satan on the cross and received the sentence of death. There the beast received his deadly wound.
David,
What you said is not what I said. Jesus did not pose as Satan. He was the sinless one who took the responsibility of our sins upon Himself. Satan, the prince of this world, is judged at the cross because he and the princes of this world showed themseves guilty of finding Christ guilty, He who knew no sin.
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Why did you say that? I’ve never heard of such a thing.
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The British dictionary gives this definition of pose:
to pretend to be or present oneself (as something one is not).
Paul in 2 Cor. 5:21 says: For he had made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
He who knew no sin pretended to be sin, presented Himself as sin, was made to be sin. If He was made to be sin, why is it hard to accept that He was made to pose as Satan?
John 3:14, 15 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life.
Jesus presented Himself (posed) as the serpent’s head on the cross in order to deal the deadly wound referred to in Genesis 3:15.
It was because of the sin of Adam that Satan became the ruler of this world. In order for Christ to redeem the world He had to die as Adam and take back the birthright, the right of the firstborn. Due to His sinless life death couldn’t hold him and He was raised to become the new ruler of the world, the second Adam. The story of Jacob and Esau is the story of this redemption. Jacob posed as Esau, the firstborn, and received the blessing of rulership - “Let peoples serve you and nations bow down to you. Be master over your brethren, and let your mother’s sons bow down to you.”
Patrick> Satan, the prince of this world, is judged at the cross because he and the princes of this world showed themselves guilty of finding Christ guilty, He who knew no sin.
God’s righteous judgement involves more than just a sentence meted out against an unrighteousness judgement against Christ by Satan and the princes of the world (IMO). It includes the execution of the conspirators in the very place of the righteous One being executed. Here are a few verses on the principle of God’s righteous judgement:
Psalm 7:15,16: He made a pit and dug it out, and has fallen into the ditch which he made. His trouble shall return upon his own head, and his violent dealing shall come down on his own crown.
Psalm 9:15,16: The nations have sunk down in the pit which they made; in the net which they hid, their own foot is caught, The LORD is known by the judgement He executes; The wicked is snared in the work of his own hands.
Psalm 35:7,8: without cause they have hidden their net for me in a pit, which they have dug without cause for my life. Let destruction come upon him unexpectedly,
And let his net that he has hidden catch himself; Into that very destruction let him fall.
Psalm 57:5,6: Be exalted, O God, above the heavens; let Your glory be above all the earth. They have prepared a net for my steps; My soul is bowed down; they have dug a pit for me; into the midst of it they themselves have fallen.
One of the best examples of God’s righteous judgement is in Esther. Haman builds a gallows to hang Mordecai and instead finds himself being hanged on the very gallows that he built for Mordecai. “Then the king’s wrath subsided.”
Paul said in Gal. 2:20: I have been crucified with Christ. In Gal. 5:24: and those who are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. And Christ says, “take up your cross and follow Me”
The only way you or I were on that cross is if Christ posed as us. How can I crucify my flesh unless I was on that cross in the person of Christ, the Lamb, who was pretending to be me? Posing as me. When I feel myself being tempted I look at the cross in my minds eye and I see my dead hands nailed and my dead eyes shut. Christ’s death was my death, the circumcision made without hands.
Galiman, you are not completely lacking in your understanding and answers.
Paul in 2 Cor. 5:21 says: For he had made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
He who knew no sin pretended to be sin, presented Himself as sin, was made to be sin. If He was made to be sin, why is it hard to accept that He was made to pose as Satan?<<
The crucial word is from the root Logizomai. It means reckon. He was reckoned to be sin for us…Satan was sin.
John 3:14, 15 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life.
Jesus presented Himself (posed) as the serpent’s head on the cross in order to deal the deadly wound referred to in Genesis 3:15.<<
Again because of their sin in the wilderness Moses serpents were sent among them. Moses told them to look at the serpent. This reminded them of their sins. Likewise when Jesus is lifted up and we are convicted of our sin Jesus heals the soul. The serpent of the wilderness was later destroyed because the people wanted to worship it. Christ will never be destroyed but hopefully worshiped.
It was because of the sin of Adam that Satan became the ruler of this world. In order for Christ to redeem the world He had to die as Adam and take back the birthright, the right of the firstborn. Due to His sinless life death couldn’t hold him and He was raised to become the new ruler of the world, the second Adam. The story of Jacob and Esau is the story of this redemption. Jacob posed as Esau, the firstborn, and received the blessing of rulership - “Let peoples serve you and nations bow down to you. Be master over your brethren, and let your mother’s sons bow down to you.”<<
Simply showing that entrance into Gods kingdom/inheritance is offered to those of His choosing not the flesh. Not all Israel is of Israel…
Patrick> Satan, the prince of this world, is judged at the cross because he and the princes of this world showed themselves guilty of finding Christ guilty, He who knew no sin.
God’s righteous judgement involves more than just a sentence meted out against an unrighteousness judgement against Christ by Satan and the princes of the world (IMO). It includes the execution of the conspirators in the very place of the righteous One being executed. Here are a few verses on the principle of God’s righteous judgement:
Psalm 7:15,16: He made a pit and dug it out, and has fallen into the ditch which he made. His trouble shall return upon his own head, and his violent dealing shall come down on his own crown.
Psalm 9:15,16: The nations have sunk down in the pit which they made; in the net which they hid, their own foot is caught, The LORD is known by the judgement He executes; The wicked is snared in the work of his own hands.
Psalm 35:7,8: without cause they have hidden their net for me in a pit, which they have dug without cause for my life. Let destruction come upon him unexpectedly,
And let his net that he has hidden catch himself; Into that very destruction let him fall.
Psalm 57:5,6: Be exalted, O God, above the heavens; let Your glory be above all the earth. They have prepared a net for my steps; My soul is bowed down; they have dug a pit for me; into the midst of it they themselves have fallen.
One of the best examples of God’s righteous judgement is in Esther. Haman builds a gallows to hang Mordecai and instead finds himself being hanged on the very gallows that he built for Mordecai. “Then the king’s wrath subsided.”<<
Rev. 14:6-12; Rev.20:7-15 show when the verdict of Jn.16 is to be consummated and God’s wrath subsides…
Paul said in Gal. 2:20: I have been crucified with Christ. In Gal. 5:24: and those who are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. And Christ says, “take up your cross and follow Me”
The only way you or I were on that cross is if Christ posed as us. How can I crucify my flesh unless I was on that cross in the person of Christ, the Lamb, who was pretending to be me? Posing as me. When I feel myself being tempted I look at the cross in my minds eye and I see my dead hands nailed and my dead eyes shut. Christ’s death was my death, the circumcision made without hands.<<
Again, Jesus was reckoned/considered as sin for us so that as to Abraham, Rom.4:22-25, we by faith and for our sake we will also be reckoned righteous because He was raised for our Justification…may I add not because of works lest any man should boast…even through the Spirit.
Regards
PS. Sometimes the devil is in the details. 
How is it that Seventh-Day-Adventists hold that a third of the stars means a third of the Angels? Because EGW says so? You’re going to have to do better than that. You are going to have to explain how they are thrown down by a dragon’s tail. A simple pronouncement doesn’t make it so. I don’t care if Ellen G White said it.
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This is not an interpretation that is peculiar to SDAs, but has been widespread in the Christian community. I agree it should not be believed just because EGW or St. Augustine or John Milton may have said it.
We can be sure Augustine is a fraud because he is the originator of the changed Ten Commandments that the Catholics, Lutherans, Anglicans, Mormons, and all the rest follow.