Revelation 7: The 144,000 and the 233,000


And there are other numbers, as you suggest, Sigve.

The ongoing deep tragedy of the Falun Gong religious practioners in China has been largely ignored by Adventists.

This is particularly heartbreaking in regard to the “organ harvesting” of Falun Gong political prisoners for profit.

I understand why no one wants to stand up to the Chinese government any more than they wanted to stand up to the Third Reich.


I would like to see a discussion of LLU ethicist James Walters’ book, What Is a Person? in relation to the issue of organ harvesting, as he advocates changing United States law to allow the harvesting of organs from living anencephalic infants.

In the face of the continuing atrocities against the Falun Gong, surely this ethical discussion is long overdue, particularly since Peter Singer is invoked as a mentor in the book.

The notion that human life is sacred just because it is human life is medieval.

—Peter Singer

I have to wonder if Walters’ book would, or could, even have been written if Adventists had grappled authentically with their collusion with the Third Reich.

To (correct me) charge a hermeneutic method (Storm Clouds Over Historicism), or blame the devil (Timeout: From Daniel to Revelation) for the abject Adventist failure in Germany is to have failed to learn anything from history, it seems to me.

We are in a black hole of the deeply inexcusable.

Pilgrimages won’t save one Falun Gong believer from being murdered by doctors for profit this week.

Tweaking our hermeneutics or our metanarrative will not help us see them as human beings, or give us the courage, or the ability, to do something for them.


Can you do anything about this, Sigve?

Neither can I.

I would want to go on your pilgrimage, but I know it would be symbolic, and the Falun Gong will still be butchered by doctors for filthy lucre in the land of large Seventh-day Adventist churches and ordained woman pastors.

Do those women pastors want their parishioners to meet the fate of the Falun Gong?

They have to be silent, at the very least.

They know this. We all know this.

Let’s surrender to the reality of how helpless we all are in the face of our own evil.

There is nowhere else to start.

I went on a pilgrimage to the Branch Davidian property outside of Waco a couple of years ago.

I sat on the side of the swimming pool and wept.

During the siege, I tried to get in touch with Vernon Howell/David Koresh through KRLD radio in Dallas. He said on air that I was his friend.

I went to Waco twice. I got as far as the forest of media trucks. I could see where the Davidians were.

His mother told me I was the only person who could talk him out.

But I failed. There was nothing I could do.

The whole world lieth in wickedness.

If we understood that, it would crush us.

As I understand the meaning of ‘burning or being tormented forever’ in scripture, it simply means until something is burned up. The text references back to Isaiah 34, where God’s vengeance on Edom is described as burning so that the ‘smoke shall ascend forever’ ( vs. 10)…but of course Edom is not still burning, and in vs. 11, the prophet describes the destroyed Edom as being possessed by various animals, which of course would not be possible if it were still burning.

Of course I agree with you that hell fire is not eternal, but until one is consumed. I know that I am asking questions that should not be asked. Yet it seems to me that even the act of burning is painful and cruel. The “smoke” that ascents to heaven indicates that the punishment may be a very slow. In USA such a means as a death penalty is illegal, on the grounds of human dignity. I find it hard to understand why God would use a means created by evil–for good to triumph in the universe. Maybe hell fire is just all symbolic in language of some other means for good to exterminate evil. I hope so.

This topic was automatically closed after 30 days. New replies are no longer allowed.