Revelation: For Re-Readers Only


(Sirje) #41

I believe you are minimizing the depth of sin in the human heart. You’re only scratching the surface if you simply make a point of following the biblical rules. Anybody can obey by deed. It’s another thing to obey by heart. Do you really think that we can make ourselves “ready” to spend eternity with God by gritting our teeth to overcome our sinful inclinations. Those don’t disappear by us focusing on them. That comes from a change of heart; and we can’t change it - (Can the leopard change its spots?).


(Dennis Kean) #42

If you are correct, then the Savior is a deceiver. No wonder Paul had to take over and change things from the way the Savior instituted them.

Here is what I mean:

Rev_2:23 …and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

Paul disagrees:

2Ti_1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works…

You are basing your views on Paul, not what the Savior said. And you are doing that in the name of greater purity than God imagined it could be done. After all what does God know?

Does God really reject people who make an effort to change? Evangelicals say, “YES!” “God cannot be pleased by our works!” is the staple answer. But God disagrees:

Isa 56:4 For thus saith the LORD unto the eunuchs that keep my sabbaths, and choose the things that please me, and take hold of my covenant;
Isa 56:5 Even unto them will I give in mine house and within my walls a place and a name better than of sons and of daughters: I will give them an everlasting name, that shall not be cut off.
Isa 56:6 Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the LORD, to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant;
Isa 56:7 Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people.
Isa 56:8 The Lord GOD which gathereth the outcasts of Israel saith, Yet will I gather others to him, beside those that are gathered unto him.

And that was a prophecy for the Gentiles to come after the Savior accomplished His mission. If they keep the Sabbaths God will recognize it! You say, “I believe you are minimizing the depth of sin in the human heart. You’re only scratching the surface if you simply make a point of following the biblical rules.” Yet God clearly accepts any small effort man makes to honor Him. Your solution is “We cannot overcome not matter what we do…” And that is where you start from. After all Paul says that we are totally depraved. The question is, “Does God really go after those who are totally depraved, to make them into His children?” If so, then everyone is eligible. Right Sirje? Even the devil!

But God declares that He does not go after those who are totally depraved. He only goes as far this, and it is in both the NT and the OT:

Isa_42:3 A bruised reed shall he not break, and the smoking flax shall he not quench: he shall bring forth judgment unto truth.
Mat_12:20 A bruised reed shall he not break, and smoking flax shall he not quench, till he send forth judgment unto victory.

What if the flax is not smoking anymore?

Clearly the Savior’s Gospel was not enough, because we need far more than God intended to do in saying:

Mat_19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
Joh_14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
Joh_15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father’s commandments, and abide in his love.

Well, this is a new religion you are presenting to me now. That is not what I learned in the Adventist churches I grew up in. Instead, I learned this in my churches:

Mat_4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

Could you possibly back up your opinions with God’s words alone? The ones which came out of His mouth? And if not, then why not?

Regards,


(Sirje) #43

To live “under the law” means we are constantly aware of ourselves - our behaviour in minutia. Jesus was asked, which of the myriad laws was the most important one, and his answer included therm all in focusing, not on the individual laws, but on the heart that underlies all our behaviour. If the heart is dedicated to God, then everything that flows from it is good. If, at our core, we are obsessing with our perfection, we become self-obesessed, without genuine love for anyone else. All our good deeds are as filthy rags, meant to check off points on our own behalf.

We are superficial creatures, measuring everything in our lives by what it looks like to others - and ourselves. If we keep the law meticulously, we appear good - even to ourselves. Of course, there is no end to this because we will never measure up - and so, we are on a fools errand.

In a way you’re right. Good deeds come from a new heart. Deeds often tell us the heart - but that’s not to be trusted. “Man looks on the outward appearance; God looks upon the heart.”

Can you tell me how all this overcoming is working out for you?


#44

You have just shown why Last-Generation Theology is not Biblical. Thank you.


(George Tichy) #45

The LGT is the biggest disaster that could have happened to the SDA Church. It’s a true doctrinal debacle. Believe me, believe me! … :wink:


(Dennis Kean) #46

I ask God to forgive my past sins. I ask Him to show me how deep my sin problem is. Every time I ask, God brings up more of my committed sins. I observe them and they strike hard. Shame, regret, tears, and determination come up. God might forget them, but I do not. My sins in their ugly state leave an imprint to want to change and not repeat them. I am no longer the same person I once was.

It is hard and painful, but after the repair, the sun shines again. I think about what led me to do the wrong thing. I search out the nexus of my impulses. The Law of God is a short list of symptoms, yet it is a diagnostic in its perfection. My prayers are not Hail Marys.

The trouble is that people prefer the easy way out and hope that God will do all the hard work for them. What is stunning is that those same people demand from God an assurance for their salvation. I mean seriously? God offers hope, not assurance. But today’s Christians insist on getting rid of hope. “Hope has uncertainty and that is not enough. Away with hope and give us Blessed Assurance.” In other words, we want an Insurance policy and we don’t want to have to pay for it! The audacity of that position is frightening. Where is humility? How did it drop out of the basket?

The idea you suggested is that keeping the Commandments of God is looking at minutia and it is wrong. But you have to start somewhere. Your start is to make yourself believe that you cannot honor God’s request in the least. The Savior, however, seems to have higher expectations for you.

Mat 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Wow! What a tall order? If that was an unrealistic request, then God uses hyperboles, full well knowing that it is impossible for us to fulfill it. My question for you is “How is your theory of defeatism working for you?” God says, “To him that overcomes…” and you say, “Sorry, I cannot, You will have to accept me as I am. And I know that I can do nothing.” But you sure can get up in the morning and make breakfast for yourself. Can’t you? To claim that you have no will to overcome sin is to say that you are not worth saving. And those who do not have worth are not going to be wearing white robes.

Rev 3:4 Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.

Total depravity is a black umbrella behind which some people try to hide. But God has X-Ray vision. And God would not request from you something you cannot achieve. The great delusion is “We cannot attain anything without God.” And we quote God saying it:

Joh 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

But that verse is not discussing the will of man. It is talking about working successfully in the field to bring others in. Without God, fighting against the devil and his host will get us nowhere. That is a true statement. God, however, gave all of us a free will. And we exercise it every day to subdue whatever we can under our own control. If we had no free will, then we could claim that we cannot do anything without God. But you respond to me and I suspect that you do it using your own free will. So, why claim that God has not endowed you with the ability to exercise your will and stand up for what is right in your own life? God would not ask you to keep His Commandments if it was not possible to do so. What would be the point of such a request?

Furthermore, contrary to the Evangelical theory number XYZ, “If you want to keep God’s Commandments, you must keep them all perfectly or it does not count!” God does not demand that from anyone. The parable about the Talents tells the story. Some accomplish much. Others accomplish less. But some decide that they do not want participation in the plan of “Making an effort” even though the effort required was just fractional.

Mat 25:27 Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.

The Evangelical theory number XYQ says “No! There is nothing we can do to please God! So, we just believe and expect to be saved.”

Mat 25:24 Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed:
Mat 25:25 And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine.

An effort, in the Christian life, is imperative and those who preach against it are not preaching the Gospel of the Savior. Our salvation depends on it.

Mat 19:16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
Mat 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

This is not Paul talking. This is the Savior…

Regards,


(Dennis Kean) #47

Where reason fails, slander succeeds!


#48

You believe that we do not have the assurance of salvation?


(reliquum) #49

Reason has failed when it resorts to believing what George posted somehow constitutes “slander”.
Self-martyrdom is not possible, posturing as victim is risible, but perhaps unsurprising.

@GeorgeTichy, do you believe MH is part of LGT?
I sense LGT is the setup to usher in an even greater abomination.


(Dennis Kean) #50

If God’s two principal motivators, Love and Hope are not enough motivation for a man to struggle against sin, that man is without hope. To replace hope with assurances is to license sin. That is what Communism and Socialism is about. Put the hand out, crying “Poor me, I can do no more, full well knowing that you can!” Socialism failed in Russia and they are pretty much back to Capitalism where people look ahead and find hope in a struggle.

Luk_9:23 And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.

What cross? Nothing is achieved without effort.

Rev 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:


(Dennis Kean) #51

And where did God say that… not man, but God? The easy way out is always, paint a letter “A” on a poster and put it on the neck of a victim, so you don’t have to reason. Labeling works very well. But I challenge you to use the words of God, not the words of men to leverage your rationale.


(Sirje) #52

Dennis,
Unless you’re living in a homeless centre, having given away all you possessions, you have a ways to go before it all ends - one way or another. That’s for starters.

The mistake you’re making is comparing the hopes of a non-Christian with a Jewish understanding of salvation - (as being payment of a life lived correctly). To be a Christian we automatically identify ourselves as sinners - sorry for our sins. I know society has labeled some groups as Christians and others as Jews or Muslims etc. That’s not a spiritual designation, but social. Spiritual Christian is more than a designation on a hospital registration. To be a Christian, we could never NOT CARE about the sin we still carry; but our hope is in the grace of God - not on our limited capacity to keep all the commandments. Salvation, based on good works, is no different than what the Jews believed; and Jesus becomes just another Jewish preacher - and the cross loses it’s meaning and power.

I understand you make a distinction between the red type words of Jesus, and Paul’s writings. Are you aware that all the epistles of Paul (and others) were written before the four Gospels… or at least around the same time. Are you aware that Matthew used Mark as the basis of the book of Matthew…Are you aware that Luke was not an eyewitness to Jesus’ life…

I do understand you wanting the message of the NT to come straight out of Jesus’ mouth. I felt the same way, and was determined to find the original Jesus (without interpretations etc.). But the NT stands together. Without Paul’s experience on the Damascus Road the meaning of the Gospels stops at Israeli border.


(Dennis Kean) #53

Mat 22:36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
Mat 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
Mat 22:38 This is the first and great commandment.
Mat 22:39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Mat 22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Sirje, Jesus was not asked which of the myriad laws. That is way beyond the topic as you can see. He was asked which of the Commandments and there are only 10 Commandments for the morality of man. And yes, those 10 suffice to expose sin. So keeping the Commandments is not that hard. The first part of the Law deals with how we love God. The Second part of the Commandments deals with how we love others. The Savior showed the separation between the tablets given to Moses.

Lev_19:18 … but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD.
Deu_6:5 And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.

Regards,


(Sirje) #54

Matt.12:34 …For the mouth speaks out of which fills the heart.
Matt. 13:15 (quote from Is. 6)… For the heart of the people has become dull…(as a result) with their ears they scarcely hear; and their eyes are closed.
Matt 15:8 This people honours me with their lips, but their heart is far away from me. But in vain do they worship me …
Matt. 22:37, 38 You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind. THIS IS THE GREAT AND FOREMOST COMMANDMENT.

And the best for the last …
Luke 6:45 The good man OUT OF THE TREASURE OF HIS HEART brings forth what is good; and the evil man out of the evil treasure brings what is evil; FOR HIS MOUTH SPEAKS FROM THAT WHICH FILLS HIS HEART.


(Dennis Kean) #55

Evangelicals like to assert that the Savior changed God’s strategy and keeping Commandments is no longer in vogue. They assert the next comments in support.

Mat_22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
Mat_22:39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

So, we no longer need to keep each Commandment. But that was the case before as well…

Lev_19:18 … but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD.
Deu_6:5 And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.

Nothing changed… The Christians are not asked to be any different… God segregated the two parts of the Law before He gave it to Moses. And it is the same Law given to Abraham.

Sirje, you cannot talk about Hope when you have the Assurance of Salvation. Can we agree with that?

Fully aware and then some. Are you aware that Paul was cast out of all the churches of Asia?

2Ti_1:15 This thou knowest, that all they which are in Asia be turned away from me; of whom are Phygellus and Hermogenes.

Are you aware that Paul abandoned his mission? Are you aware that Paul reverted to having sacrifices offered for himself before he tried to rejoin the Pharisees? And instead of being courageous like Stephen, and calling himself a Christian, he cried out before the mob that he is still a Pharisee:

Act_23:6 But when Paul perceived that the one part were Sadducees, and the other Pharisees, he cried out in the council, Men and brethren, I am a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee: of the hope and resurrection of the dead I am called in question.

Having been cast out in the meeting with the church of Ephesus, Paul could have gone on to Ethiopia, the far East etc… He said that he was ready to die, but everything he did was to save his own skin. He finally called himself a Roman and got away from his friends who wanted to stone him like Stephen. That was not courage.

Do you understand me better now, wanting the message of the NT to come straight out of the mouth of the Savior?

Mat_4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.


(Dennis Kean) #56

Thank you for the effort. I always respect a man who makes use of the words of God.

My question to Harppa, however, was concerning this comment, Sirje:

Sorry for the confusion…

Regards,


(Sirje) #57

The “Last generation theology” is not biblical because it assumes we are capable of becoming perfect in our commandment keeping. We can only be perfect “in Christ”; but the LGT claims there is no forgiveness of sins once Jesus leaves the “Holy of Holies” located somewhere in heaven (which is already holy by definition; and sets up a non-sequitur of there being degrees of “holy” in the presence of God). This leaves us without a mediator, to stand before God, relying on our (im)perfect deeds. It is assumed (from the pen of another human) that we will have overcome all our sins and are able to do that. The LGT doesn’t come from Jesus’ mouth either.

As for Paul…

Paul was appealing for the illegality of being tried outside of Rome since he was a Roman citizen. He was not equating himself with any pagan or Jewish beliefs. It was not Paul’s job to offer himself up as a Christian martyr. It was clear he had a job to do - to bring the Gospel to the Gentiles. If his li9fe had not been spared, you would not be a Christian.


(Dennis Kean) #58

This has been the case always. It was not different in the days of Israel; OT. And the only diagnostic tool we have are the 10 Commandments, to realize where the heart lies. Keeping the 10 Commandments is not an evil thing as Evangelicals present it. The Evangelicals are not pleased to see someone trying to keep God’s Commandments. They cry out “You are trying to get credit for your works”. God, on the other hand, is pleased.

Isa 56:4 For thus saith the LORD unto the eunuchs that keep my sabbaths, and choose the things that please me, and take hold of my covenant;

God’s Covenant is principally the Commandments in His Law. The Savior came to honor and magnify the Law of God because it was trampled upon.

Isa_42:21 The LORD is well pleased for his righteousness’ sake; he will magnify the law, and make it honourable.

How is the Law of God honored if it is removed! That is called “Abolishing the Law”. Paul preaches about abolishing the law. Here is one of his rationales:

Rom 4:15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.
Rom 4:16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

That claim is wholly unfounded. Abraham kept God’s Law and all the Ceremonial, social, health laws given to Moses!

Gen 26:4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;
Gen 26:5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

Paul’s argument fails here! And its failure is sealed by James:

Jas 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

Does God reward people for works?

Mat 20:1 For the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is an householder, which went out early in the morning to hire labourers into his vineyard.
Mat 20:2 And when he had agreed with the labourers for a penny a day, he sent them into his vineyard.
Mat 20:3 And he went out about the third hour, and saw others standing idle in the marketplace,
Mat 20:4 And said unto them; Go ye also into the vineyard, and whatsoever is right I will give you. And they went their way.
Mat 20:5 Again he went out about the sixth and ninth hour, and did likewise.
Mat 20:6 And about the eleventh hour he went out, and found others standing idle, and saith unto them, Why stand ye here all the day idle?
Mat 20:7 They say unto him, Because no man hath hired us. He saith unto them, Go ye also into the vineyard; and whatsoever is right, that shall ye receive.
Mat 20:8 So when even was come, the lord of the vineyard saith unto his steward, Call the labourers, and give them their hire, beginning from the last unto the first.
Mat 20:9 And when they came that were hired about the eleventh hour, they received every man a penny.

Rev_22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.


(Dennis Kean) #59

Well, now we know who your God is. Paul is your god, but he is not mine. I am a Christian because of the Savior. His name is on my title; Christ-ian. Pauline doctrines are a confabulation of a simple minded man who cannot express any degree of consistency. When he started He did not want to rock the boat.

Rom_2:13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

Wow! That almost sounds like the Savior… Then he turns around:

Rom_3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight:…

And Paul does not stop there. He contradicts the Savior. The Savior said:

Rev_2:23 …and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

Paul disagrees:

2Ti_1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works

The Savior said:

Mat_6:24 No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

Paul disagrees:

Rom_7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

The Savior said:

Rev 2:7 …To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.
Rev 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:

Paul says “No way!” we were predestined to succeed. Away with the idea of overcoming, dude:

Rom 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)

That means God elected Jacob to be saved and Esau to be lost before they were born. In that case, “To Him that overcometh…” is meaningless because God supposedly knows who will overcome! That tells us that God says crazy things, if we listen to Paul. It makes the plan of Salvation into a scam.

Yet, God says that He tests the hearts of men to see their intentions? Why? He knows for sure who will do what and when! Why test the intentions of the heart? Unless, Paul is wrong…

Jer_17:10 I the LORD search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings.

Rev 2:23 … and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

God says that He judges His own sheep by works. Paul says No! Who is right?


(Sirje) #60

The commandments were given long after Abraham died. Abraham’s righteousness was based on his FAITH.

Gen. 15:6 Then he believed in the Lord; and He reckoned it to him as righteousness.
GEN 26: 5 refers bak to Gen.22:16 to where Abraham demonstrated FAITH that God would save his son Isaac. "Because you have done this thing (ready offer up Isaac) and have not withheld your son…I will greatly bless you … . Salvation is not mentioned here - only blessings. On the other hand…
Gen. 15:6 Then he believed in the Lord; and He reckoned it to him as righteousness.