Revelation: For Re-Readers Only

(George Tichy) #61

Not sure what you mean exactly. But I have a question that can clarify it,

Do you support PERFECTIONISM, aka LGT? ____ YES … ____ NO

(Dennis Kean) #62

Jas 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
Jas 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

The trouble is that the cart cannot go before the horse. And so is faith and actions.


INTENT is another name for FAITH. But INTENT does not come up for air until the DEED is done. Hence… “Because you have done this thing…” .

The cart cannot go before the horse. Deeds, therefore expose the faith of man. To separate them into independent parts is to dismiss reason. Faith fills the cart and Action is the horse. They are inseparable as a means of delivery.


Together this complex is called WORKS. Therefore, the Savior says:

Mat_16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
Rev_2:23 …and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.
Rev_20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev_20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Rev_22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

Trying to fix faith is only possible for man via training himself to do what is right. It takes time and effort and God will reward each of His sheep for their effort, be it small or great. Those who dismiss effort and make no effort to change, yet want assurances for salvation…

Well, you can finish that sentence.


(George Tichy) #63

Yes I do. To be a LGTARIAN requires a certain kind of personality and brain wiring. It is obvious that the LGTarians, the MHpers, and WO opposers have the same structural configuration.

It can also be noticed that they are usually ultraconservative, Republicans, and would not say a word reprimand in Trump’s maliciousness and demagoguery.

But I wouldn’t be surprised if some of them threw a big rock on me for revealing this truth about them here… :slight_smile:

(reliquum) #64

Not so fast. You say “those who dismiss effort” in the next sentence following “effort, great or small” belies your fallacies. You cannot determine what constitutes “dismiss effort” by anyone (unless you have godlike status and power) anymore than you can determine “make no effort to change” (can you read the heart, the private agony of a tortured soul?

Holding your carrot of salvation assurance, and jerking it away at the moment you dare determine someone is unworthy of such is sadistic, wrong, and false. In other words, sin.

I pray you hear the good news (and that your chauffeurs license to so keep sinning is revoked)

(Dennis Kean) #65

I will not encourage your favorite habit of dismissing all reason with a Label of the letter “A” hung on your victims. It is your only weapon for your opposition and I require reason in a dialog. Puerile efforts to label people when you are cornered is not how it is going to be done anymore if you want to talk to me. I do have that right and it is not a hard request.

By the way, I read the entire thread on LGT after you coaxed me to overpost. My conclusion: I see it as the creation of a label to shortcut reason when you cannot prevail. So, now you need to find something else because I do not accept that labeling. And it is clear from my view on Paul that I speak of my own personal ideas.

(reliquum) #66

Don’t fear the rock, George.
It is either salvation, or damnation, thats all.

(Dennis Kean) #67

I made no jugements of anyone and spoke only of the Savior’s words.

Rev_2:23 …and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

You can take that up with the Savior, not me.

(reliquum) #68

tell us how that defense works for you, at your trial…i will keep praying you confess and repent, turning away from cherished sin.

(Dennis Kean) #69

It is a deal… Will do!

(Sirje) #70

Why do you assume that a person with faith in Christ’s finished work on the cross doesn’t want to do right? But hey, we will never agree, on which comes first faith or works. By the way, motives are very often hidden, even from us. Even our desire for salvation can be held for the most selfish of motives if we think we can fool God by just bering nice.

(Dennis Kean) #71

Righteousness cannot be based on faith. DOING RIGHT is not on par with THINKING TO DO RIGHT but not doing it in the end.

Gen_22:16 And said, By myself have I sworn, saith the LORD, for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son:

“…saith the LORD, for because thou hast done this thing…” The deed is the operating nexus in God’s expression. Within the WORK lies the INTENT. But without the ACTION, the INTENT cannot come up for air! Can you see that? The collection of good works is expressed by a horse pulling the cart. That justifies the Savior basing salvation on WORKS.

Mat_16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
Rev_2:23 …and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

(Sirje) #72

Well, good luck to you. This merry-go-round is making me dizzy, so I’m getting off.

(George Tichy) #73

Exactly the kind of response I thought it could be. Basically refusing to take responsibility for the position held and refusing to answer a simple question. Though it’s obvious that not answering it is in itself a clear and unequivocal answer.

Stating all those things about me personally is ineffective because they are ad hominem comments, and the issue is not me but LGT, MH, and WO.

PS: I just wrote a full comment without using the word “you.” What a contrast uh?? :smiley::smiley::smiley:

(Tim Teichman) #74

What then does this mean?

Romans 3: Righteousness Through Faith
21 But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22 This righteousness is given through faith in h Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25 God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, i through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished— 26 he did it to demonstrate his righteousness at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.

Other verses:


This debate is so important.

It is the Adventist conundrum - the unending debate about the roles of faith and works. It is based on Adventist suppositions about God’s plan of salvation.

Can you all at least see that there must be something inherently contradictory or at least confusing in what you have been taught?

I truly believe there is a way to read the Bible and resolve this argument.

I believe it comes back to the Adventist misunderstanding of the gospel.

George T., did my explanation of the purposes of the IJ examination of our works in comment #34 on last week’s SS Article called ‘Revelation: Our Options for Interpretation’ make any sense to you?

(Steve Mga) #76

Dave –
What do we do with Paul’s take on “works” after Faith.
Seems that Paul’s take on “works” is more of a Life-style.
Galatians 5:19-21 are more “Immature”, “Emotional”, childish
and adolescent behaviors.
Galatians 5:22,23 are more “Mature” types of living.
Paul, in 1 Cor 13 sees that “Love” is the motivating power in a
truly lived life.
A Galatians 5:19-21 life is one that is devoid of Love.
Both for other persons, and also for one’s self.

(George Tichy) #77

If you don’t use the @ identification people will not know that you wrote to them. I just found this by accidentally seeing my name on it.

Regarding you comment on that other site, I already wrote that it appears that you did not use a single verse from Hebrews. Dealing with the Sanctuary and 1844 issues without using the book of Hebrews makes the discussion incomplete, ridiculous, and basically dishonest.

For me, reading the book of Hebrews answers all my questions. Therefore, I have no further questions.


Dennis talked about those who overcome being given rewards. He is correct. He quoted Rev 2:26 in which Christ says to the church at Thyatira that he who overcomes will be given authority over the nations. Others will be chosen to be priests, others will be called to be judges. Our works now are important in determining if we are qualified for these roles of authority in the coming kingdom. I believe the upcoming judgment of believers, a judgment based on our works, will determine who is to be chosen for these future roles.

That is entirely separate from the gospel, what Christ has done in His life and death for us, the source of the new creation sinless life within us revealed to Paul by Christ Himself (Gal 1:12). Adventism can’t seem to grasp this. Ellen White often talked of the struggle we must undergo to achieve salvation. I honestly believe she was wrong about this.
It is not natural, it is supernatural. It is a gift of God. We claim it by believing in what God, in Christ, has done. Unfortunately there are many old covenant Christians. The OC was based on the vow of man to be obedient to God (Ex 19:8). The new covenant is based on the vow of God to man to give us a new, divine, sinless nature, to put the law in our hearts (Jer 31:33; Heb 8:7-12). The new covenant is so completely different. It is God’s doing and so cannot fail. It will be fully manifested in God’s time. We are to cooperate with the Holy Spirit and nurture this divine seed within planted by the gospel but never to go back to trying to tame the flesh to achieve salvation by obedience.
You can’t put old wine in new wine skins. If you try the skins break and all is lost. Yet many try to make man’s obedience salvific, to try to put the OC in the NC.

Christ spoke while on earth in terms that reflected the old covenant. Firstly because the OC was still in effect (only later did His own shed blood inaugurate the NC) and secondly because nobody would have had the slightest idea what He was talking about (His death and resurrection allowing us new creation life) before it happened.
God chose Paul to explain it to us after the fact.


I don’t understand, George. The only reason I called it the term ‘IJ’ and put investigative in brackets was to help Adventists relate to it.
The Bible speaks in many places about a judgment of believers based on our works at the end of this age. I gave several references to it in my comment. It is not about our salvation. I don’t believe it started in 1844 and it is not to determine who is saved or lost.


What about Hebrews 11?