Revelation: For Re-Readers Only


#81

Although @dkean is trying to squirm out of admitting his perfectionism, it is clear that he believes Heaven is a reward for perfectly keeping the law–righteousness by works.

LGT is the belief that before Christ can come, a generation of Adventists will reach equality with Christ in keeping the law and perfection of Character (Christ’s character completely reproduced in them). Christ is an example, a role model. LGT believe not in Christ’s complete saving grace based on faith in His righteousness alone, but in their own ability to reach perfection.

In other words, Christ is delaying His coming until this perfect generation emerges.


(Dennis Kean) #82

Nice try but no cheese.

Mat 19:16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
Mat 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

Secondarily, from your analysis, the entire church of Thyatira will have power over the nations! The first one will be the only one with the right to eat of the tree of life. Then all the other ones will perish.

Rev 2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

It does not work that way. The overcoming part is used to hone in on who it is addressed to, Dave. Prophecies mainly contain pointers to various times and events of the future.


For the rest of you guys, I have made many comments above and you are asking me questions which you already have answers for. I read every post you make to ascertain that I understand your penchant. Last time I posted back for every person’s pleasure I was suspended. Read my posts and my answers are in them. If you have a new and unique question I will gladly oblige you with an answer, unless you start wielding the “LGT” label which I choose not to dignify.

Love you all, friends…


(George Tichy) #83

I don’t think we disagree much on the salvation issue.
But even for that, the book of Hebrews is very helpfull.


#84

But Dennis, if you quote Christ’s response to the rich, young ruler you are quoting something from the time of the OC. Please be very careful about this. How could Christ explain to the RYR that there would be an entirely new way of salvation based on a His death (sacrifice for sins) that would supersede everything the RYR had been taught and believed?
He never would have understood before the fact. We struggle to ‘get it’ now. So Christ simply told him to love his neighbor (sell everything and give the money to the poor) and love God (follow Me).

Christ was not talking to the entire church at Thyatira when he singled out the overcomers. Overcomers now, in our age, are a small subset of believers. They are the firstfruits of the kingdom. They will be rewarded with positions of authority as the kingdom is manifested. They will be more than just citizens of the coming kingdom. ‘Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection…they will be priests of God and of Christ and reign with a Him for a thousand years.’(Rev 20:6).
I know these may be new concepts to you but I have come to believe they explain God’s plan of salvation for us.


(George Tichy) #85

The only option left would be righteousness based on Works, Deeds. Which is an absurd idea considering what the Bible teaches about it. Justification by faith is related to righteousness by faith and it has nothing to do with works.

Salvation by works, or, righteousness by works is nothing but an heresy. It reminds me how Heretics were treated in the past especially Jan Hus and Jerome…:wink::wink::joy:


(Tim Teichman) #86

I can’t stop laughing. :slight_smile:


(Steve Mga) #87

As I stated in a post on a different site here on Spectrum.
Hebrews author wrote the letter to JEWS. And IT uses JEWISH Pictures as it
describes itself in the letter.
Comparing Hebrews with Revelation where John says there IS NO TEMPLE,
but the Father, Jesus, Holy Spirit are the Temple raises a lot of questions.
ARE the pictures of a “tabernacle with 2 compartments” in heaven, REAL or
are they REPRESENTATIVE ideas since that is what the readers are familiar
with,
In Revelation, candlesticks, etc. are they REAL or REPRESENTATIVE.
Last week in S.S. class we began a study of Hebrews here. Yesterday the teacher
mentioned that Ellen stated that to go from one compartment to another Jesus and
the Father had to ride some type of vehicle to get there.
I know what he said was true, as I saw it in print late teens, early 20’s. But that has
been long ago and I had forgotten all about that.
She also said that Jesus left the Table of Shewbread “throne” going into the Most
Holy on Oct 22, 1844, and Satan taking the place of Jesus when He left.
^^^Tricky trying to explain all this to an Inquiring Mind regarding our SDA position
on Hebrews and Revelation.


#88

WHAT?? Satan is in Heaven? Wasn’t he along with his angels cast out of heaven? Where is this in the Scriptures?


(George Tichy) #89

Inquiring minds are not welcome in Adventist realms. Look how difficult it is for some visitors here to deal with inquirers like you… :smiley::sunglasses:


(George Tichy) #90

I doubt she said that. I don’t remember ever reading it. And nobody showed yet where she wrote it. Let’s see if they can provide the sources.


(Steve Mga) #91

GT–
Along with that she said there were a group who did NOT follow Jesus into the
Most Holy Place. And that when Satan took his place on the Table of Shewbread
bench, that he blew on them, but that was all, on those who remained kneeling
there. And what he gave, they thought was from Jesus.
I thought it was strange, but then kids aren’t supposed to ask questions. And since
it WAS Ellen, must have been something she saw in vision.


(Dennis Kean) #92

Okay, let’s take apart Hebrews.

God gave a Covenant for the people beginning with Adam moving on to Noah, Abraham, Israel, David and suddenly God changes His mind on things. The Moral Law was good until the Savior died and then the Law became useless. God our Almighty God who changes not, suddenly changes the core belief and discards the Law!

Heb 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
Heb 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.

Wow… brilliant assessment! God’s everlasting Covenant proves to be just a temporary patch or a faulty covenant!

1Ch_16:17 And hath confirmed the same to Jacob for a law, and to Israel for an everlasting covenant,
Psa_105:10 And confirmed the same unto Jacob for a law, and to Israel for an everlasting covenant:
Lev_24:8 Every sabbath he shall set it in order before the LORD continually, being taken from the children of Israel by an everlasting covenant.

And now that everlasting Covenant passes away because it was not really as good as it was made to sound! Paul was sure that the Second Covenant took root at that time and even tried to imply that he preached his own gospel to the whole world.

Let’s test Paul’s assessment. But instead of using Paul’s restatement of God’s words, let’s go directly to the source.

Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
Jer 31:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:

So far we know that Israel did that. God took them by the hand to bring them out of Egypt. But as time passed Israel broke God’s Covenant and finally the Savior came and as Daniel’s prophecy chapter 9 testifies, God gave them 10 Jubilees to reform and return. They did not. So, God kept His part of the of the Covenant and because of their breaking off the Savior finally cast them out. “Jerusalem, Jerusalem… Your house is left unto you desolate”. We all know the story.

The Christians, however, never did corrupt themselves! They were perfect from the moment they came in until today. After all, they were under a better Covenant. Right? Why let’s read about that progressive New or 2nd Covenant to realize why Christians fared so much better than Israel, (if they did! Hmmm…)

Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Now we can see why Christians are so much better! Right, guys? Hope you are enjoying this… Keep reading as it gets better…

Jer 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

Oh, yeah, dude! Since the Savior, until now, there was no need to preach about God anymore. In fact since then until today everyone knows God from the least unto the greatest. 2000 years of pure joy and happiness!
Right? That must be the distinguishing marker which proves Paul to be the man of the hour who knows how to interpret prophecies just right. And that makes it so believable that the 2nd or New Covenant was better than the 1st Covenant. Right? God wrote His laws into the Christians’ hearts and voila! The results are far far better. And if you believe that, I have a bridge in Manhattan I will gladly sell you for a fair price!

Now, as you wake up out of that dream, you have the opportunity to recognize that Paul misunderstood that prophecy abysmally. The 2nd or New Covenant was not meant for that day and time at all. The Day of everyone getting to know, who God is, was meant for a distant future. It is discussed in great clarity by Ezekiel. Let’s read it to grasp that momentous future event, which God is so earnestly waiting for.

Eze 39:6 And I will send a fire on Magog, and among them that dwell carelessly in the isles: and they shall know that I am the LORD.
Eze 39:7 So will I make my holy name known in the midst of my people Israel; and I will not let them pollute my holy name any more: and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, the Holy One in Israel.

The time of the Savior’s 1st visit was not the day when all discovered who God really is! After the Savior, The message was preached and preached saying “Know the LORD” everywhere the Christians could reach.

The Savior’s struggle with the devil was done and the Savior was victorious.

Rev 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
Rev 12:8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
Rev 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

The Father and His law, however, now underwent severe scrutiny and today our battle still deals with God’s Law because Lucifer has set a fire on God’s Law to claim that His Law is not good enough. From the day of the cross the Law, little by little, underwent greater and greater opposition. A whole new hierarchy was produced to wreck God’s Law and replace it with a forgery. The 1st 4 Commandments were demolished. The 2nd Commandment was removed entirely by the Roman church. The 1st was modified. The 3rd Commandment could not be broken anymore because God’s name was hidden and substituted for “LORD”. The 4th Commandment was changed to the 8th day of the week, which only has 7 days in it. Brilliant just brilliant machinations.

We are nearing the time when God the Father via His Law will be vindicated just as the Savior was on the Cross. But that will not be the end of the Great Controversy. The Holy Spirit being poured out is the next battle where the usefulness of the Holy Spirit will come under scrutiny. When that is done and the Holy Spirit is vindicated, then and only then will God announce the final reiteration of the words “IT IS DONE!”. At that time all the enemies of God will have admitted God’s righteousness and Israel, His flock which includes you and me will know who God really is.

Eze 39:8 Behold, it is come, and IT IS DONE, saith the Lord GOD; this is the day whereof I have spoken.

When the Savior was about to die, He said:

Joh_19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

When the Father’s Law will be vindicated, a voice will be heard out of God’s heavenly Temple saying:

Rev 16:17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.

The Savior’s victory was announced with “IT IS FINISHED”
The Father’s victory will soon be heard saying “IT IS DONE”
The Holy Spirit’s victory will be announced after the Millenium with “IT IS DONE”

After that the 2nd Covenant, which was promised, will finally take hold. Everyone will know God. And no more preaching will be needed because God will have ended sin once and for all. No one in the future of that time will be able to bring God into the courtroom saying, “Prove to us that you are righteous, LORD, if you want to be respected as our Judge.”

Lucifer turned the table on God and demanded that God shows how much He really loves the creatures He has created. And that required 3 different Eras to settle that counter-suit. With the Second Covenant, God promises that rebellion will never occur again.

Nah_1:9 What do ye imagine against the LORD? he will make an utter end: affliction shall not rise up the second time.

That my friend is the place where the 2nd Covenant is designed to kick in!

Before that, however, during the Millenium, the Holy Spirit will be poured out on the people to teach them and purge them from sin. It will take 1000 years to accomplish that goal, in case that some people imagine that sin can be uprooted with some pills or hypnosis.

Isa 13:11 And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.
Isa 13:12 I will make a man more precious than fine gold; even a man than the golden wedge of Ophir.
Isa 13:13 Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the LORD of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger.

That educational 1000 years will restore the saved to be fit to live among sinless people.

Isa 30:19 For the people shall dwell in Zion at Jerusalem: thou shalt weep no more: he will be very gracious unto thee at the voice of thy cry; when he shall hear it, he will answer thee.
Isa 30:20 And though the Lord give you the bread of adversity, and the water of affliction, yet shall not thy teachers be removed into a corner any more, but thine eyes shall see thy teachers:
Isa 30:21 And thine ears shall hear a word behind thee, saying, This is the way, walk ye in it, when ye turn to the right hand, and when ye turn to the left.
Isa 30:22 Ye shall defile also the covering of thy graven images of silver, and the ornament of thy molten images of gold: thou shalt cast them away as a menstruous cloth; thou shalt say unto it, Get thee hence.
Isa 30:23 Then shall he give the rain of thy seed, that thou shalt sow the ground withal; and bread of the increase of the earth, and it shall be fat and plenteous: in that day shall thy cattle feed in large pastures.
Isa 30:24 The oxen likewise and the young asses that ear the ground shall eat clean provender, which hath been winnowed with the shovel and with the fan.
Isa 30:25 And there shall be upon every high mountain, and upon every high hill, rivers and streams of waters in the day of the great slaughter, when the towers fall.

Paul did not understand half of the passages he quoted and we can go into that on another thread if you wish. But this is where the 2nd Covenant takes place, not where Paul positioned it. Today, should Paul be alive he himself would accede that he was dead wrong. But tradition is the great and heavy set of chains we are burdened to wear until the Lord shines His light upon us.


#93

Early Writings p. 54
Just search this quote
“I turned to look at the company who were still bowed before the throne; they did not know that Jesus had left it. Satan appeared to be by the throne, trying to carry on the work of God.”
Who inspired that?


#94

perhaps EGW was utilizing a metaphor?


(Dennis Kean) #95

It is no different than Daniel saying:

Dan 11:31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.

Or…

Dan 8:11 Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down.
Dan 8:12 And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.

This is viewed as the time 538 AD when the Heavenly Sanctuary was definitely in heaven, as per the Adventist views. So, how could Lucifer or the pagans go to heaven and place the Abominable Desolate in the Sanctuary of God??? Melouglass is correct that it is likely to be a metaphor…


(Tim Teichman) #96

Yes, based on the bible, Satan is free to travel to heaven and remains part of the heavenly court of divine beings. Weird, huh? This is reflected in several passages, including Job 1 and Job 2:


Attack on Job’s Character

Job 1:6 One day the heavenly beings [or Sons of God] came to present themselves before the Lord [Yahweh], and Satan [or the Accuser, the Adversary ; ha-satan] also came among them. 7 The Lord said to Satan, “Where have you come from?” Satan answered the Lord, “From going to and fro on the earth, and from walking up and down on it.” 8 The Lord said to Satan, “Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man who fears God and turns away from evil.” 9 Then Satan answered the Lord, “Does Job fear God for nothing? 10 Have you not put a fence around him and his house and all that he has, on every side? You have blessed the work of his hands, and his possessions have increased in the land. 11 But stretch out your hand now, and touch all that he has, and he will curse you to your face.” 12 The Lord said to Satan, “Very well, all that he has is in your power; only do not stretch out your hand against him!” So Satan went out from the presence of the Lord.


#97

Perhaps this is a metaphor.


#98

Many scholars view the book of Job as mythopoeic and allegorical.

Ref. Parsons -Literary Features of the Book of Job

Ref. Hawley - Metaphor Coherence in the Book of Job


#99

Ellen White said that the Devil is in the most Holy places of heaven faking out humans and pretending to be God where the Holiest of the Holy abides?


(Tim Teichman) #100

Well, if we start going there…

The book of Job is said to be the oldest book in the bible, borrowed from another culture and edited to comply with Israelite beliefs at the time. Most of the book is a poem or a song that follows an ancient genre.

On balance, though, the ideas of a heavenly court and that The Adversary interacted with Yahweh in the way depicted here were standard Israelite beliefs and are reflected throughout the old testament.

This belief explains difficult texts where God appears to refer to other gods/holy beings or refers to self in the plural. This starts in the creation story in Genesis 1:

Then Elohim said, “Let us make humankind [hebrew adam] in our image, according to our likeness; and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the wild animals of the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps upon the earth.”