Revelation: For Re-Readers Only

(Patrick Travis) #101

Can you give us your written source? I believe in the OT she was wrong about the scapegoat being Satan.


A fallen being who has been cast out of the courts of heaven has access to the Holiest Place (where God Himself is) when other beings die just from the light of His being and even His voice destroys (Psalm 29)? How can this be? His presence would contaminate the Holy Sanctuary (Where God Himself abides). Would it not? Who can stand?


Steve, sorry I took so long to respond to your comment (#76 I believe).
I basically agree with you.
Paul’s letter is to the churches in Galatia so he is talking to people who have accepted the gospel - salvation through faith in Christ (even though he warns them about falling back to lawkeeping to try to be saved).

In Gal 5:19-21 Paul speaks of ‘deeds of the flesh’. He regarded ‘the flesh’ as the old, Adamic, fallen part of him in which sin resided (see Rom 7:14ff). In this passage he seems to almost reiterate his own struggle that he wrote about in Rom 14 by saying here in vs 17 that the Spirit and flesh are in opposition and you sometimes do the things that you don’t want to do.

But please notice he never says that these fleshly acts can cause one to lose his salvation (See also 1Cor 3:11-15). Our salvation is by faith in what Christ has done on our behalf.

In vs 21 he says that those who practice these deeds of the flesh will not inherit the kingdom of God. Again, I don’t think he’s talking about salvation. (The difference in understanding was quite remarkable to me when I started to separate the issues of salvation and the kingdom.)
Inheritance of the kingdom implies ownership and therefore authority. At the end of this age, not all believers will have reached this point. For some, the fruit of the Spirit he mentions in vs 22 will not yet be ripe, if you will.

I believe only the subset of believers the Bible calls overcomers or the elect will be assessed in the judgment to be trusted as co-heirs with Christ as the next stage of the kingdom is manifested. As servant leaders, their reward will be to assist those not yet ready to be glorified.

I think you are right about love (or in the case of the works of the flesh, lack of love) being the motivation. Love to Christ for His sacrifice for us. Love to the Holy Spirit for planting His divine seed within us and leading and guiding us, love to God the Father for His plan for us and His patience with us as His plan unfolds.

(Dennis Kean) #104

That was only until the Savior died. Afterward there was no longer any reason to allow him to go back and disturb the peace.

Rev 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
Rev 12:8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
Rev 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

The Devils are now prisoners waiting for their trial. Sayonara!

(Tim Teichman) #105

Well, it’s what the bible says. I’ve read a few books that discuss this in depth historically.

The ancient biblical Adversary is not our Christian devil.

“Satan”, a transliteration from the ancient Hebrew, ha-satan, was not the devil, but was like a defense attorney in the heavenly court, one that filled the role of publicly challenging God’s decisions so that the other sons of God saw that they were were just.

This is the basic premise of the Job story, where The Adversary challenges God and makes the claim that Job is only loyal to God because God has been good to him. So, The Adversary is allowed to take all from Job as a test - except for his life.

Similarly, the serpent in Genesis was not the Christian devil. Actually he may not have been The Adversary either. He is described oddly this way: “Now the serpent was more crafty than any other wild animal that the Lord God had made.”

So, he was a wild animal that God created, and one that could talk and was crafty (devious). Why would God create such an animal, one that would tempt humans? And wouldn’t that tempting actually be the first sin?

(Dennis Kean) #106

Once again, Meldouglass is right on target. The story of Job was given to portray the Savior and the controversy which arose between Satan and the Son of God. To justify his own depravity, Lucifer responds to the Father’s commendation of Job.

Job 1:9 Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, Doth Job fear God for nought?
Job 1:10 Hast not thou made an hedge about him, and about his house, and about all that he hath on every side? thou hast blessed the work of his hands, and his substance is increased in the land.
Job 1:11 But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face.
Job 1:12 And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD.

That is what brought the Son of God to the earth to be tested. Satan made that charge against the Son of God. At the end, before He was taken to prison, the Savior makes that profound comment:

Joh_14:30 Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me.

The charge, “But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face.” was settled once and for all. The Savior lost all and did not even have a home and bed to sleep in. Try as he may Satan could not show that the Savior ever complained against His Father. Instead, in his hour of agony, His words were:

Mar_14:36 And he said, Abba, Father, all things are possible unto thee; take away this cup from me: nevertheless not what I will, but what thou wilt.

The Savior was also portrayed by Isaac which, though a real story, was orchestrated by God to tell a story of the conflict between Satan and the Son of God, as well. Here, however, we would need the Book of the Jubilees to get the full story and how Ishmael antagonized Isaac. Ishmael represented Satan and Abraham was portrayed as the Heavenly Father in type. And as good Bible readers know, the Savior’s allegory about Abraham’s bosom sheds light on the role he played.

Luk_16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham’s bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
Luk_16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

With Moses, we know that the Israelites could not look upon the face of Moses. We also know that Aaron was the priest and Mariam was the prophet. What does that trio seem to represent?

David is yet another live allegory. What was Absolom doing standing in the gate of the city and telling the people coming in and out? And who was Solomon the builder of the first stationary Temple? Additionally, why is the Savior called the son of David? I think that those who read the Bible carefully will catch on to what God is trying to portray.

(Dennis Kean) #107

Any good reasons for believing that?

(Patrick Travis) #108

What scriptural basis do you have that azazel was Satan or he can bear the sins of anyone? Only Christ died for our sins and removes them from us. He separates them from us forever. Nothing is said in the text about responsibility for causing sin and death as provocative reason.

(Dennis Kean) #109

Do you have access to the WEB? It is not hard to find content on that. Just type Azazel and pick what you want to read…

Here are a few links:

If the Savior separates us from the sin, then why is the devil to be judged at all if the Savior pays for the sins which the Devil influenced humanity to commit? Real justice makes a child molester pay the price. You seem to think otherwise?

Furthermore, if the Savior pays for our sins it means that God is doing what He forbade Israelites to do:

Jer_19:5 They have built also the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings unto Baal, which I commanded not, nor spake it, neither came it into my mind:

And that was a Pagan ritual, to burn their sons unto Molech!

No, my friend, God is not blind. The child molester has to be punished if justice is to be served. That particular point is EGW’s deepest and greatest insight, which puts her in a category all on her own. And I am one of those Adventists who believe her when she said that she is not a prophet. I also love that lady as if she was my own Mom.

The core of the plan of Salvation is shown in how sins are transported unto the originator of the rebellion against God. The other religions can sing and dance and flap their lips, but the point about Azazel is solid as tungsten. The Savior was tested to show that He was worthy to become Judge and executioner for the Evildoers. He passed the test and He was allowed to bear our sins into the Temple of God to await the Judgement day in order to deliver them to the author of sin!

God does not kill His son as a sin offering like Pagans. Such things do not come into His mind. Justice does not allow for sins of the guilty to be imputed on an innocent individual. It is considered to be the highest crime and even humans who have devised our justice systems around the world will revolt at the innocent being imputed with the sins of the guilty.

Jer_19:5 They have built also the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings unto Baal, which I commanded not, nor spake it, neither came it into my mind:

(George Tichy) #110

Hey Dennis, you did not seriously expect me to read all that, did you? Hope not to disappoint you, but I didn’t. I never read those long and pretentious “Bible studies” posted here. This is not a Sabbath School class… :roll_eyes:

Fact is that I don’t need you to help me understand Hebrews; I can read it myself, and its message is very clear. I will let you “tear it apart,” but I will just read it again. I already read it more than 100 times, and counting! Every time I read/hear a new heretic statement about 1844/IJ I just read Hebrews again, and the heresy is erased from my memory! Thank God!

I also noticed (when I scrolled down through your post) that your comment has tens of passages that are not even from Hebrews. Yes, I believe you were serious when you said, “Let’s tear apart Hebrews.” Good job, “believe me.” (as Trump says… lol)

Keep tearing it apart!..

(George Tichy) #111

The book of Job is one of the biggest challenges to intelligent thinking.
I could never believe it was a literal story. For me it was always an allegory, a very strange one though. Not much realistic teaching in it, but a lot of nonsense. Some people apparently learn something from it…

(Patrick Travis) #112

Last reply tonight. I have studied Hebrew in my M.Div. program but by no means a scholar of the language. But…I don’t need to use online sources of all types.
I will offer you recognized scholars Keil & Delitzsch of the OT. Point being Satan does not bear our sins. He is responsible for his alone. Christ has a double role. He forgives and separates us from the penalty by His atoning sacrifice. So the two goats were showing the double role. Both expiation/propitiation and separation from penalty.
The fact that LGT doesn’t understand this or accept it is why they will die in their sins…unless they repent. They are no different than the Qumran communities…in reality.

(Dennis Kean) #113

I hate to disappoint you George, but I did not write that with you in mind. Your dialogs are primarily dissing people with labels, deriding them, boasting and anything else you can squeeze in, short of sound reasoning. So, I’m not expecting anything more than what I got from you.

When you show me that you can reason I will gladly take you into consideration when I write. Right now there is little to compel me to connect to you.


(Dennis Kean) #114

Denial may seem like an argument, but don’t be fooled. It is not!

(Tim Teichman) #115

I do think that’s correct, but also that it otherwise reflects what at the time was accepted theology, that there as a heavenly court and so on.

(Steve Mga) #116

Even today there is the BIG Question–
What did I do to make God mad at me?
Did YOU do something to make God mad at you?
That is WHY all the calamaties of the personal life.
People still ask that question and were asking it when Job was written.

(reliquum) #117

can you hear Job the great grandson of Noah,
wealthy inheritor/family man/business magnate crying out, from Edoms Job Towers,
down there in the Land of Uz, the Big Pomegranate;
“God, why are you such a low energy God? SAVE ME!”

(Dennis Kean) #118

Mat 11:16 But whereunto shall I liken this generation? It is like unto children sitting in the markets, and calling unto their fellows,
Mat 11:17 And saying, We have piped unto you, and ye have not danced; we have mourned unto you, and ye have not lamented.
Mat 11:18 For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, He hath a devil.
Mat 11:19 The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners. But wisdom is justified of her children.

(Patrick Travis) #119

I gave you information…you give me hubris.

(Dennis Kean) #120

Where is the hubris, since I did not respond to you at all? Like you, I went to bed, last night. So you must have included yourself among the four to whom I did reply to just a minute ago. And now I have a sense of where you are coming from. Thank you for that. And I will adjust my replies to fit your case.

So, let me reply to you, now…

And I do not need to read isolated ideas which you have cherry-picked to contend with EGW’s comment. The greater part of Bible scholars and the Jewish scholars know what Azazel is about. That is beyond your and your friends’ scope and skills to dismiss or contend with. And you know it, which is why you do not want to see any other sources.

Azazel is the one who originated sin. Justice demands that he pays for his contribution. Our God is a God of justice and mercy, something possibly too hard for some to understand. A child abuser has to face judgment sooner or later. God asks for perfection because every action a man takes can cause a cascade of troubles down the timeline or a bounty of blessings. A life of carelessness is not viable for long. And that eventuality demands a high standard. Abusing others as the Originator of sin has done requires the execution of justice.

Exo_34:7 Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty;

Lucifer did not repent and he remained guilty. God’s Law was given so that the guilty would pay for the price of his own sins, not the innocent. Therefore, there is no reason for the Savior, someone innocent and perfect in character, to be sacrificed for the sins of others. That would be a violation of God’s own Law! That is a Pagan practice and it does not come into God’s mind.

Jer_19:5 They have built also the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings unto Baal, which I commanded not, nor spake it, neither came it into my mind:
Jer_32:35 And they built the high places of Baal, which are in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire unto Molech; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.

Unfortunately, Christianity is still coming to its senses to grasp why the Savior died. And there is the Sabbath… and there are the Kosher foods which help to promote better health… etc. The list is long. Progress is slow.