Righteousness by Faith

Once again Allen, we are 180 degrees apart. You can have your frightening path to heaven, and a God, which seems to be just waiting for you to make a mistake.

I don’t think there will be a solitary soul in heaven that got there because they were frightened into following the rules. Everyone is suggesting books to read. I might also recommend Stuart Tyner’s books on Grace. God is looking for every possible way to save us, not to scare us and not to make it so hard to reach Him that we must watch our every move, our every utterance, and our every thought, lest we slip into the abyss.

God knows our human condition, He understands our weaknesses, and He will find a way to save everyone who believes in Him. John 3:16 didn’t get to be the most quoted verse in the bible for nothing. It demonstrates a God of love, not one with whip in his hand and a book to write down every wrong turn we take.


Kevin Paulson used to wade in on this subject here on Spectrum, but I haven’t seen him in ages. I think you mentioned he had been banished from Spectrum. I don’t know why. He never indulged in name calling, swearing, or anything that was over-the-top offensive, unless you could call his “authoritative attitude” offensive. I would not let him “get to me”, but instead turned his logic right back at him to show how by his very illogic basically proved the points I was trying to make.

It is when in the tension of opposition that the truth wins out. When we just “preach to the choir” it’s not as challenging. I invite LGTarians to step into the discussion and demonstrate just how ridiculous such theology is. Fair enough @GeorgeTichy


Stuart Tyner was one of my two best friends around here. We spent hundreds of hours together. I miss him much, it’s been almost a year now.

His book on Grace is certainly one of the best ever written. I wish all Adventists were trained on Grace studying his book. But many won’t because they appear afraid of Grace. They would rather rely on their own works for salvation.

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As you know, Stuart was also one of my dear friends. I can think of no one who personified a true Christian more than Stuart. I miss him very much also. He lived what he wrote.

Yes, KP was promoted :sunglasses: to millennialism over a year ago. I don’t know why, but there must have been a reason for that.

I am not sure that the LGTarians have actually contributed much here other than bringing some flawed and strange arguments into the discussion, often irritating some readers.

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LGT teaches that when you sin you lose your justification and are no longer covered by Christ’s righteousness. I remember well (I should say terrribly, not well) when Tom and Margarett Davis put on a seminar for our church about 35 years ago. They were so caught up on sinless perfection that even Ivory soap would be lost because it is only 99.44% pure. There had to be 100% purity to qualify in the IJ when it ended, because the saved had to live without a mediator in the time of trouble.

Although not specifically said, the message was clear you’d be hung by the Rope at the end in the IJ, but holding onto the Rope you will reach a state of sinless perfection. I’m basically adding this rope analogy here because we are discussing righteousness by faith in a setting that is bringing up this “vision” of EGW.

I remember in 1981, the year after I came back to the church, Morris Venden authored that year’s morning watch book… It was titled “Faith That Works” and it had a cover depicting two arms of a person holding onto a rope. I remember how helpful and encouraging that book was to me. I read it over and again for years. Years later when I would paw through the used book sale at campmeeting, I would buy that book and give it to people in the church.

Venden didn’t teach a faith plus works theology. He was basically into relationship theology and taught that righteousness by faith indeed worked. Don’t misunderstand here. I’m using the word “work” here in the sense that if you hold a key that you are told would open a lock to a safe full of money, you must use the key in the lock to gain access to the money inside.

Justification by faith is Christ applying the benefits of his death on the cross to believers, (John 3:16). Simply put, we are all sinners and our account is overdrawn, billions that we can never cover. Christ offers you a check to cover it all, but you have to deposit it into your account. If you toss the check into the trash you will gain no benefit from the check.


You are likely right George. Like Fulcrud7 their “pure” theology would just muddy up the waters in this discussion. Isn’t that about right @GeorgeTichy. LGT is as clear and comforting as a polluted pond. It is toxic religion at its worst,


My God is not wanting for me to make a mistake, but has reached down and saved me from multiple of them.

So you have God’s motive all wrong about the path. He has forgiven my sins, and given me strength, and made a way of escape, the path, and the chord of faith from above.

But he has not deceived me about the safety of the way. It is fearful, with precipices on every side. But think about it. If I am holding on to the chord of faith, I am not thinking about the cliffs, but about the one who is on the other end of the chord. And if I slip, do I fall? No, I have the chord that keeps me from falling.

God is truthful about he path. It is dangerous, for we have sinful natures that love sin, and are weak to keep him always in mind. It is an honest assessment. Peter says that even the righteous are scarcely saved. ( 1 Pete 4:18). Even Jesus spent whole nights in prayer for the weakness of his own humanity.

Frightened into following the rules? No one is saved by following the rules. Righteousness is by grace thought faith. I don’t need a book about it. I know about it and walk by faith. The article above is right on target.

But I am not naive about the path. I have seen too many loose their way, So I take it seriously.

Where do you get that idea from what I have said?

Does God have a record of our sins? Does he keep the books?

Paul seems to think so. Again, 2 Cor 5:10. For we must all appear before th judgement seat of Christ, that each one may receive what is due him for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.

Or Jesus, Matthew 16:27.“For the Son of Man is going to come in hi Father’s glory with his angels and then he will reward each person according to what he has done.”

If we rely on our own righteousness, we will face the books, but if we relay on Jesus’ we are fine. But the books are there. He does not lie.

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I agree with all you have said. We owe billions, but are forgiven the debt. I am not one who says if you sin, and repent, you are in and out of the books. Ellen even says it is the trend of the life, not the occasional misdeed etc. God is gracious to his children, and has made met every need of his wayward ones. I look to him in faith, not holding up anything that I have done, even all my correct opinions here on spectrum, er, ahem…

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Hey now wait just one dad gum minute you, you person you. I happen to be a LGT straight up. Liberated God fearing Tea totter. ( if you must know, JD over the rocks )

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I am always getting those confusing acronyms mixed up, Charles. Does LGT mean lesbian, gay, transsexual or is it somethin’ about those Adventists over at Fulcrum7?

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I remember this quote very well. It’s in Steps to Christ. I loved that little book. I still have my great-grandmother’s original edition printed in 1908. I found those words encouraging, and wrote them in my old Bible many years ago, along with many other things she wrote that I felt spiritually uplifted by.

EGW was a mixed bag. I never would accept her as the last word on biblical interpretation. If I thought something she wrote didn’t hold up by the Bible, I tossed her
writing out. That is considered heresy by most die-hard SDA’s. I see her as a biblical commentator, a person serving in a pastoral way, not an “authoritative source of truth.”
To add that as a fundamental doctrine is making a pope out of her.

I better stop there. I don’t want to turn this blog into a verbal fisticuff over EGW. But I will state this, I didn’t take that story she tells about the cliff walk and the rope in my mind the same as some did. I’m quite familiar with that story too.

As one who was traumitized by the thoughts of the IJ and the time of trouble as a youngster I first heard that story many years later as an adult. I even read it once in my Sabbath School class. What I came away from that story back then was this. The more difficult and forbidding our life path may become, as we continue on the path, our faith in Christ grows proportionately, and we learn to hold completely onto him. Christ’s strength is made manifest in our weakness. We are basically dead meat without Him. It was basically the way I made sense out of Paul’s statement that when I am week, then I am strong. Christ’s strength is made perfect in my weakness.

If this seems a contradiction of my earlier post about this “vision”, all I can claim is yes it is. It all depends on which end of the horse I’m talking about.


Mrs. Ford,

Thank you for sharing the Good News. I believe there is a False Gospel (works and perfectionism) being preached in many of our churches today and this benefits from members not willing to go to the bible for their final word. Our standing is perfect, not our character.


L:GT = Last Generation Theology. (aka The Old Perfectionism heresy, now in new disguising clothes)


“The Green Cord” is the name of a book written by a pastor
as a pastoral comment on the “green cord vision.”
Sold through the ABC quite some time back.

It was written by Alex Bryan, the former pastor at WWU Church.

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But, then there’s Noah’s ark.



OMG never should LGT be misunderstood as standing for lesbian, gay or transsexual. That would be an abomination to all us LGBT’s out there. Thanks @GeorgeTichy for clarifying what the acronym stands for. Those disguising clothes you speak of are their good works which according to Isaiah counts as filthy rags,

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Another aspect of RBF is believing and trusting that Christ’s atonement for us frees us from condemnation and accusations by the enemy(Read Zechariah 3). Clothed in Christ’s righteousness, we accept by faith that we are complete in Him. Just like the Father in the story of the Prodical Son in Luke 15, His royal robe (righteousness) covers us. The Father didn’t say to the son, “take a bath, get a haircut and a shave, and take off those rags and put some respectable clothes on and then you can wear my robe.” He accepted him and welcomed him back into the family just the way he was. But no doubt the son didn’t stay in the condition he was when he came to his senses and came home.

Morris Venden put faith and works, ala RBF, in the proper perspective by saying apples trees do not produce apples to become apple trees.  An apple tree produces apples because it IS an apple tree. But lo and behold, the LFTarians are  fanatical fruit inspectors.  They carefully examine every apple produced and if they find one worm, they say AHA!, these apples aren't PERFECT, therefor we must keep pruning back to rid of any rotten apples.  At some point all you've got left is a stump, and they think they have solved the dilemma of worm in the apples, cause there ain't none left. That rotting stump is about all that's left of peoples theology once the infection of LGT has taken its toll.

Hmm, I’m not sure why the analogy I offered above was posted the way it was with a treadline.

This is my one and only hope of making it to Heaven. Nobody will see me getting in, they only will see Christ’s garment on me, so I will be able to snick in by HIS merits only. No passport (list of my “good works”) needed. If I show up presenting my “good deeds list” or who I actually am, there is no way to get through those holy gates!

In fact…, I am practicing wearing such a garment, just to get used to it. Here is the picture of @elmer_cupino and I when we last met for breakfast a few months ago at Panera here in Riverside. Oh boy, we are ready, aren’t we? :roll_eyes: :rofl:

:innocent: :innocent: