“Room for Everyone”: Swedish Union Issues Statement about LGBT+ Individuals

(David) #198

Galileo has given the best definition for the role of expanding (present) truth and I agree with him.

"The reason produced for condemning the opinion that the earth moves and the sun stands still in many places in the Bible one may read that the sun moves and the earth stands still. Since the Bible cannot err; it follows as a necessary consequence that anyone takes a erroneous and heretical position who maintains that the sun is inherently motionless and the earth movable.

With regard to this argument, I think in the first place that it is very pious to say and prudent to affirm that the holy Bible can never speak untruth-whenever its true meaning is understood. But I believe nobody will deny that it is often very abstruse, and may say things which are quite different from what its bare words signify. Hence in expounding the Bible if one were always to confine oneself to the unadorned grammatical meaning, one might; fall into error. Not only contradictions and propositions far from true might thus be made to appear in the Bible, but even grave heresies and follies."

I was dismissive of his argument (not him) that tradition has something to do with how we understand what God says is immoral. Tradition has normally been used to justify transgression of the law (refer to Christ’s arguments). Gay sex is transgression of the law, therefore tradition has nothing to say about it.

Bryan was dismissive of my argument against the hypocracy of Pete whatshisname when he said my argument was irrelevant. I haven’t done anything to Bryan that he didn’t already do to me.

(George Tichy) #199

I won’t;this I am sure of.



Whose business is it, anyway?

(Michael Wortman) #202

Rather a cryptic statement, David. I"m tempted to chide you for throwing the baby (Adventism) out with the bath water (Anti-Roman Catholicism) and for your unabashed interesting use of post-Biblical history to support your interpretation of Bible prophesy or Bible symbolism. Some might say that “the Lord worked in mysterious ways” by influencing Constantine personally and as a means of spreading Christianity to the Roman Empire and, from there, beyond. I won’t say all that :slight_smile: but am asking that you elaborate on your statement.


The 5th commandment is not absolute. You are not supposed to invoke this commandment in order to dishonor or disobey God for example.



You said, “just don’t over do it”. According to you, would not giving more alcoholic wine to people who had already drunk in abundance qualify as “over do it”?


Can you spell “addiction”? :smile:

(reliquum) #207

Oh boy! This ought be fun! Who decides?

In other news, i heard there was really but a single command, and not chiseled in stone.
Well, excepting heart of stone.



With your approach, everything is permissible. Just call it present truth and that’s it.

Also, the second book of God is not supposed to contradict God’s first book. Not everything is perfect in nature as it has been also changed by sin.


Can you show that from the Bible?

(Cfowler) #210

Nymous, what do you think of this passage in Deuteronomy 14?


22 Be sure to set aside a tenth of all that your fields produce each year. 23 Eat the tithe of your grain, new wine and olive oil, and the firstborn of your herds and flocks in the presence of the Lord your God at the place he will choose as a dwelling for his Name, so that you may learn to revere the Lord your God always. 24 But if that place is too distant and you have been blessed by the Lord your God and cannot carry your tithe (because the place where the Lord will choose to put his Name is so far away), 25 then exchange your tithe for silver, and take the silver with you and go to the place the Lord your God will choose. 26 Use the silver to buy whatever you like: cattle, sheep, wine or other fermented drink, or anything you wish. Then you and your household shall eat there in the presence of the Lord your God and rejoice.

(Steve Mga) #211

Even my Jehovah Witness Bible says “wine or other fermented drink”.
Actually “alcoholic beverages”, and anything you please.

(Cfowler) #212

I wonder what the Clear Word Bible says…:thinking:

(Bryan Ness) #213

Really? Hmm, I still think that murder, lying, stealing, adultery, and a variety of other wrongs clearly spelled out in the bible are still wrong. By definition present truth results from a better understanding of God’s message to us, which will, of necessity, lead to some things being permitted (or possibly, prohibited) that once were prohibited. I am by no means saying that we should allow anything and everything.

Exactly. So, either the Bible does not prohibit same-sex marriage, or the science is wrong and same-sex attraction is unnatural and should not be allowed (along with same-sex marriage). Thus the reason for revisiting the Bible and carefully considering whether our traditional interpretation of the texts often used to prohibit same-sex marriage really do prohibit it.

We also have to make sure that given a better moral understanding that something the Bible condones or prohibits may need to be revised anyway. Slavery is an excellent example. The Bible clearly says that slavery is an acceptable practice, even including various Levitical laws regulating the practice. I dare say that we would not want to continue to encourage slavery just because the Bible does. We have been able to recognize clear moral grounds for condemning and prohibiting slavery, in spite of the Bible’s encouragement of it.

(Bryan Ness) #214

There are a variety of texts in the Bible that define marriage in different ways, but, of course there is no establishment of same-sex marriage in the Bible, since culturally there was no place for such relationships. On the other hand, the Bible does not prohibit same-sex marriages either. As I have made clear a number of times, since the Bible is silent on the topic, God leaves it up to us to use our moral reasoning abilities to navigate such questions.

On compassionate grounds, since there is no moral harm in allowing same-sex marriages, they should be allowed. We cause more damage by prohibiting same-sex marriage, because that ends up condemning LGBTQ+ individuals to living solitary, lonely lives with no opportunity of ever having an intimate, monogamous, committed, sexual relationship with another person. This is one of humanity’s deepest drives. How can we stand in judgement of those, who through no fault of their own, are attracted those of their own sex, and tell them they can never experience this deepest and most meaningful kind of human relationship? We would have to be very cold and hard-hearted indeed to force this on other humans.

(George Tichy) #215
  1. Evidently, Paul had no clue about the fact that gay people are born this way, that - like everyone else - their gender status is not a choice.
  2. There should be absolutely no remarks or judgment regarding people’s gender condition. This is nobody’s business.
  3. In our days of advanced scientific knowledge, those people who are not educated on the “nature vs. nurture,” or “being vs choosing” issue are outdated. Discussing the issue with people like that is equivalent to discussing with flat earth believers.
  4. Everyone is created by God. Satan cannot create a human being in the womb. Therefore, those who have a problem with someone being gay should go after God instead of going after the gay people. Even some people here, they should write posts discussing the issue with God, not with us!

(George Tichy) #216

You certainly described your point very nicely. I believe that our Church is really at fault for not dealing with this issue properly. But I am not expecting any major change for any soon - it would be an unrealistic expectation. Since it’s now an election year at the GC, they are now concentrating on re-elections and politic maneuvers. No time to deal with this kind of issues. :roll_eyes:

(Elmer Cupino) #217

And may I add that the 10th commandment is not absolute either as it only pertains to husbands. :blush: Wives are allowed to covet their neighbor’s husband.

(David) #218

I agree Michael. Constantine was a man of destiny just like Judas was. God uses those who oppose Him to fulfill His own will. The ten kings of Revelation are the followers of Constantine. They give their strength to the beast, make war against the Lamb, and yet God uses them to fulfill His will in destroying Babylon.

Moral of the story: You can’t fight against God and win!


(David) #219


It just says they ran out of wine, not how much they drank. They were apparently low on wine at the start of the wedding.

I think it’s up to each person to determine how much is too much.