“Room for Everyone”: Swedish Union Issues Statement about LGBT+ Individuals

(Michael Wortman) #268

Jeremy- While a “trial by fire” due to discrimination might make many stronger, you seem to gloss over stats on suicide attempts and overlook the need of humans, gay and straight, to be included in circles of friendship and acceptance. https://www.lgbtmap.org/file/talking-about-suicide-and-lgbt-populations-2nd-edition.pdf

…and the Swedish Union/SDA initiatives are not all about gay individuals. Church people everywhere may need awareness of their own insularity; to be aware that they many be responsible for perpetuating hurtful actions.

(Steve Mga) #269

Yes! Churches that have “Liturgy” can have so MUCH FUN with it…
But sometimes I think… My Jewish friends might have a little more fun
with its Liturgy various times of the year.
Halloween at my Sunday church we do Saul and the Witch of Endore with
readings taken from Samuel and in costumes. Then there is Trunk and Treat.
For Easter weekend we have Maudy Thursday meal, footwashing and readings.
Another night we read the Gospel of the Trial and crucifixion from one of the Gospels.
Varies by the year. With different audience members assigned various character
reading parts.
Sat night have the Great Vigil, and when we shout HE IS RISEN! we ring all the bells
we have with us, from tinkly to loud cow bells.
And This Sunday had red streamers from the fan blades, altar flowers in red and yellow.
Everyone wore something red, orange or yellow. We also had 2 baptisms. And the
congregation renewed their Baptismal Vows during the short service. At the end of
the Baptismal part, the priest has a device that can sprinkle the audience as he moves
up and down the aisle. One of the persons up front gets to sprinkle our priest. [He said,
“Don’t be too rough!” and we all laughed.
One can have a lot of “Fun” with Liturgy pagentry which also dramatizes Bible teachings.

(Steve Mga) #270

Michael –
What Jeremy is condoning is Severe Isolation, and separation.
What Everyone needs, as you bring out, is Friendships, Acceptance in
circles of demonstrated Love. And Inclusiveness.
Jesus was Inclusive to Everyone. Those approved by the Church of His
day, and ALSO those who were disapproved by the Church of His day.
And He brought the two groups together in His ministry and made them
as ONE body, ONE family unit.
And THIS began the Kingdom of God [Heaven] on Earth. 42 months of
teaching INCLUSIVENESS of ALL Humans.
The Christian church, the SDA church STILL has NOT learned from the
example of Jesus.
We STILL believe that Jesus was Foolish saying to everyone, no matter
who they are, or what they are doing, “COME!” “I want to gather you
under MY wings for Love and Protection.”

(Manuel Fernandez) #271

Affirming everyone thinking on this LGBT issue, God ultimate needs to allow Satan to live in Heaven. For real?

(Elmer Cupino) #272

Haven’t you read Job 1:6?

Job 1:6 “One day the heavenly beings came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan also came among them.”

(jeremy) #273

statistics, schmatistics, michael…i’m glad that your reference makes the point that the “large majority” of gays don’t commit suicide, and that we don’t, and can’t, know anything about differential rates of suicides between gays and straights…my experience living the life in my 20’s and 30’s was that no-one i knew, not even one person, wanted to commit suicide…this was true of even the over 40 friends and bf’s i had who died of AIDS, and whose wakes and funerals i attended one very dark summer during the depths of the AIDS scourge in calgary in the early 90’s…i can tell you that every one of these individuals fought for life up and until they literally couldn’t…no-one said to me that because the SDA church didn’t approve of their lifestyle, they wanted to end their lives…

your reference also mentions the importance of resilience, which is a fact i’ve seen first hand in every gay person i’ve known…we don’t need hand-outs from society, least of all adventist society…we can do and get what we want all on our own…i find this tendency to patronize gays to be demeaning and insulting, and i’m quite sure other gays feel the same way…

(Tim Teichman) #274

Yes, Satan is part of the heavenly court. His role as the adversary is to challenge God’s assertions.

The bible couldn’t be clearer on this. And yet, somehow I was never taught this by anyone in the church. I had to go actually read the bible to find it. Weird.

(Bryan Ness) #275

How dare you do that. Don’t you know how dangerous it is to read the Bible for yourself?

(Cfowler) #276

When you read the Bible God did not tell the Israelites to refrain from drinking wine. They were warned against drunkenness.

“These two aspects of wine, its use and its abuse, its benefits and its curse, its acceptance in God’s sight and its abhorrence, are interwoven into the fabric of the OT so that it may gladden the heart of man (Ps. 104:15) or cause his mind to err (Is. 28:7), it can be associated with merriment (Ec. 10:19) or with anger (Is. 5:11), it can be used to uncover the shame of Noah (Gn. 9:21) or in the hands of Melchizedek to honour Abraham (Gn. 14:18).”

— F. S. Fitzsimmonds, “Wine and Strong Drink” (New Bible Dictionary)

I don’t know about you, but I’ve never felt merry, or had my heart feel gladdened when drinking Welch’s grape juice. :grapes: :slightly_smiling_face:

(George Tichy) #277

I was interpreting it for him, so that was OK… LOL


Is homosexuality a new thing under the sun? Don’t you think if there had been a way for gay people to be together without being put to death for homosexual acts that God would have mentioned it?

A lot of mental gymnastic without bring any proof at all. This is not convincing at all. You mention culture but you seem to forget that it is God who is speaking in Leviticus not man. I hope that you are not saying that God needs lessons on human biology… That would be rich.

Also, you said that there was no need to mention lesbian sexual relations etc. You seem to forget that oftentimes God addresses the men but it doesn’t mean that the women are not involved. There are many examples of this. For instance, when God said not to covet a neighbor’s wife did it mean that a woman could covet her neighbor’s husband? Of course not. A woman was not authorized to covet her neighbor’s husband just because it was not spelled out in the Ten Commandments. The principle applies for men as much as women even if it is expressed as if addressing a man.

(reliquum) #279

Oh, you mean like gender blind ordination?

(Bryan Ness) #280

Yes, as understood today. The people of Biblical times had no conception of same-sex attraction as a biologically based phenomenon. They appear to have seen it as just an alternate way for men to get more sex, and, of course, such an extra-marital outlet for sex would be forbidden.

You seem to assume that God Himself literally wrote Leviticus. Leviticus was written by humans doing the best they could given what they understood about God and His commands. I am not even sure how God could have had a biological discussion about same-sex attraction in an era where no one understood even basic biology. God has always worked with people within the cultures in which they lived.

Wait. Are you saying that Leviticus is verbally, word for word, inspired?

Uh, no, but the people of ancient times sure could have used some biology lessons. So many of the Levitical laws show a deep ignorance of biology.

(Elmer Cupino) #281

Neither did the Lord mentioned that women were prohibited from coveting their neighbor’s husband, does that give them a pass?

Can you state specifically what biblical “principle” this is and its applications?

(George Tichy) #282

Boy, I loved that you reminded us all about this fundamental principle. Thank you much! :+1:
I wonder if I can have your authorization to quote you in my next letter to the GC President, to remind him of this principle next time he deals with WO issues?

(Steve Mga) #283

Proverbs 7 beginning with verse 6 discusses a Married woman
inviting a young man to her house. To delight with Love together
for the night.
The husband is on a trip, and has a bag of money to spend before
coming back home. Apparently he told her when he would return.

(Elmer Cupino) #284

I’ve had a number of patients lose their marriages because they returned home earlier than when they were expected by their wives. LOL!

The women get a pass because they are not prohibited by the 10 commandments.

(Steve Mga) #285

Yes. Men don’t call. Like to surprise their little woman, but sometimes
this can be a surprise for them.
TV in real life.


God was not just speaking about drunkenness.

For example, in Proverbs 23:31, God even says not to look at it. And in Proverbs 31:4, it is said that it is not for kings and princes to drink wine or strong drinks.


Nice try! :slight_smile: