“Room for Everyone”: Swedish Union Issues Statement about LGBT+ Individuals


(Steve Mga) #21

Bryan –
unfortunately this is ONLY Sweden.
Have to see what the rest of Europe do.
Have to see if North American Unions will copy the ministry of the Sweden
Seventh-day Adventists.
Here in North America we have Members who have LGBT+ children, relatives.
These need to be allowed to have full membership privileges. Acceptance. Many
of them have grown up in the church, attended Sabbath School from early ages,
have gone to church school, perhaps attended Academy and perhaps a College.


#22

David,

Do you think that Jesus made alcoholic wine at the wedding?


(David) #23

Yes I do Nymous.

@Nymous


(Steve Mga) #24

Wine in the Gospel story.
When John, the writer, wrote the story and broadcasted it to his churches,
he did NOT DEFINE the word “wine”. So apparently his readers and hearers
KNEW what he wrote.
Apparently they had no questions, were NOT concerned, NOT confused like
we Christians are these days with our many Do’s and Don’ts, depending on
which BRAND of Christianity one subscribes to.

In the story of David and Uriah, David gets him drunk [apparently with wine]
but he still does not go home, sleeps on the ground with the guards.
Egypt produced a type of “Beer”, but doesn’t seem to have been popular in
Palestine.


(Gerald McDonald) #25

Upon reading this letter from the church, it does seem as if there is a slightly left leaning of the church from biblical truth that is on the verge of being something like the Government’s “don’t ask don’t tell” actions.

We don’t know what anyone new member is when they visit a church. And this anyone new member should never be made to feel as though they are not welcomed. Everyone should leave our churches with a desire to want to come and fellowship again. Not one person should be made to feel as thought they would not be welcomed to a service, an outing, a pot luck, or a camp meeting.

But we should always let it be made known that to become a member of the church, everyone must be willing to surrender all of our beings to the cleansing, and salvation that is offered to us through the blood of Jesus Christ.

That we all need to be determined to all Christ to cleanse us from all sin, and that homosexuality is a sin.

And if a person who joins the church commits any sinful act with the intention of continuing in this sinful act, where all in the world would know of this, then the church must follow the discipline guidelines of the church and do what is necessary to show that the sin is not acceptable, but also let it be known that the sinner is.


(Gerald McDonald) #26

We should understand what it is that Paul would not have wanted when he counseled Timothy to drink “a little wine for the stomach sake”. And when Christ made the best wine ever at the marriage feast. God does not want our abilities to reason to be impaired. In any way. So since the word for grape juice has been used for the alcoholic wine, then we need to take this into consideration. Christ would not take of the drink that was offered Him when hanging upon the Cross, obtaining the right to earn our salvation. He knew that to drink this drink offered to Him would impair His judgement, and that satan was not finished with his temptation with Christ yet. As was apparent when the Scribes and Pharisees came wagging the heads and making fun of God, as they were being used as instruments of temptation by satan. When he goaded our Savior trying to make Him use His power and free himself from the Cross, and demonstrate that He really was God. Thus ending our salvation and ensuring our destruction.

So we know that wine is alcoholic. So why assume that the wine created by the Savior from water, would have not been only the best grape juice man had ever tasted?


(Gerald McDonald) #27

Are you friends expecting to be allowed to be practicing gay members of the church, or just be willing to attend with the intentions of surrendering themselves to Christ and be cleansed from their sins.


(Elmer Cupino) #28

Can you be more specific as to what kind of “sins” “practicing gay members” need to be cleansed from?


(Elmer Cupino) #29

John 2:10 “Everyone brings out the choice wine first and then the cheaper wine after the guests have had too much to drink; but you have saved the best till now.”

I do not engage in alcoholic beverages but I have engaged in the treatment of alcoholism for decades and still do. I have always wondered how anyone can tell the difference between the first and the last drink as I have always heard that the last drink is the “best” until one of my patients told me “when you’re drunk, the last drink is ALWAYS the best, regardless…”


#30

So when you refer to sins as being “where all in the world would know of this,” and therefore unacceptable, doesn’t it then follow that hidden or secret sins are fine? How about lust, envy, and pride? If they aren’t expressed so the world knows it, is it OK with you if those sinners remain in good standing as SDA’s?

And what about other sins, such as fornication (don’t doubt me), coveting, gossiping, bearing false witness, greed, sloth? And then there’s gluttony. Observe at the next potluck. How many overweight members are there (including myself) and despite the “health message” we have a number of obese individuals, but if they’re vegetarian it’s OK, because we’re sure they’re doing the best they can, right?

So, in your opinion, where does our judgement of the “sins” of others begin and end? Please give us your boundaries in this matter, and quote the Bible to show where it tasks us with determining whose “sins” can be overlooked and who we are to condemn. I mean, the Bible does tell us to exclude sinners from the church, right?


(George Tichy) #31

Correct, this is a major problem.
Here in the US, at least on the West Coast, I don’t see this as a big problem. But overseas… Oh boy! I lived in Brazil for 40 years. The Church basically feels entitled to control people’s lives in any aspect. It’s almost like you are a piece of property owned by the Church. Crazy. The judgmental attitude is common practice.


(George Tichy) #32

Agree 100% with this point. That’s my position as well.


(George Tichy) #33

Please, for the sake of accuracy, allow me to rephrase it:
“It’s ALL and ONLY about what Ellen White says.”

What Adventists need the most is to become a Sola Scriptura people.
The Church will never do that, but you and I can. I already did, almost 40 years ago. So far, so good!
=-=-=-=-

There are certainly opposing opinions on this issue, but they are mere opinions on both sides. There is no way to know for sure. The Bible says “wine,” not grape juice. Wine is wine, cannot be something else.

One of my theology professors said that if we want to be honest, we have to accept that the Greek refers to wine - real wine. And it’s not up to us to challenge the Bible.

Disclosure: I don’t drink anything alcoholic, not for religious reasons, just because I believe it’s not good for our health.


(Manuel Fernandez) #34

"Room for Everyone” It’s certainly not a suprised to see this coming from a European institutional church system, which just another Catholic system, which follow a secular/humanistic worldview, and not a biblical worldview. If we affirm this line of reasoning content of this SDA union, the ultimate conclusion will be that “for love and acceptance reasons” God should also allow Satan to be in Heaven too. Well, a distorted theology always end up in strange and dangerous bahaviors. Speaking for God when He has already spoken is not wise.


#35

Help me out here: Who is in charge of the sinning detection and identification?
Is there a questionnaire? Please mark the following sins which characterize you:
—Gluttony
—Gossip
—Domestic violence
—Selfishness
—Pride
—Insults
—Sexual sins and lust
—Breaking the edges of the Sabbath
—Not a cheerful giver
—Polygamist
—Meditation and centering prayer
—Non-Kosher eating
—Do not exercise daily
—Do not have devotionals daily

So whose job is it to sort out the people who are sinning and people born (not their choice) with same-sex attraction?

But who sorts out those who can “belong”?

This is everyone, right?

When is the last time a member was disfellowshipped or denied membership for gluttony? Killing in the military? Domestic violence? Sexual harassment? Greed? Sipping wine? Wearing a necklace?

Is it compliance committees you need with this agenda item?


(David) #36

@rtmcdge

One’s reasoning abilities are not measurably impaired if one doesn’t overdo it (though I wouldn’t want to be behind the wheel of a race car). I do believe God wants people to be happy and that’s why He made the wine. Wine makes people happy.

The grape, at least the vinifera variety native to Eurasia, is the perfect fruit for winemaking. No other fruit has the right blend of acids, sugar, and tannins. If the grapes are picked at the right time there is nothing you have to add. There are naturally occuring yeasts on the skins of all grapes. As soon as you crush the grapes fermentation begins and takes about 10 days to complete. The only way to prevent it is by adding sulfites, heating, or refrigeration.

There is no record in the bible of anyone ever heating the must to prevent fermentation (anyone who did would have been considered nuts). I guess one could correctly call it grape juice for the first few days after being crushed.

I don’t see that as an argument against the common use of alcoholic wine in the world as well as in the bible. Christ was accused of being a wine bibber so I have to conclude that He also drank alcoholic wine, hence the accusation.

Arron was told not to drink wine or intoxicating drink when he went into the temple. Note that it doesn’t say ever. The obvious implication is that Arron and his sons COULD drink wine when they were not entering into the temple.

Lev. 10:8-9: …Aaron, saying: 9 “Do not drink wine or intoxicating drink, you, nor your sons with you, when you go into the tabernacle of meeting, lest you die.

The same reasoning can be applied to the instruction given to Sampson’s mother. The obvious implication is that prior to her conception she was able to drink wine (alcoholic).

Judges 13:3-5 And the Angel of the Lord appeared to the woman and said to her, “Indeed now, you are barren and have borne no children, but you shall conceive and bear a son. Now therefore, please be careful not to drink wine or similar drink, and not to eat anything unclean. For behold, you shall conceive and bear a son. And no razor shall come upon his head, for the child shall be a Nazirite to God from the womb;"

First of all, it doesn’t pass the snicker test. I’ve never been to a wedding where grape juice was served and I don’t think we today are much different than people living at the time of Christ. Alcoholic wine rejoices the heart. What better beverage to serve at a time of rejoicing!

Judges 9:13: But the vine said to them,
‘Should I cease my new wine,
Which cheers both God and men,
And go to sway over trees?

Esther 1:10: On the seventh day, when the heart of the king was merry with wine,

Psalm 104:14-15: He causes the grass to grow for the cattle, And vegetation for the service of man, That he may bring forth food from the earth, And wine that makes glad the heart of man,

Ecclesiastes 10:19 A feast is made for laughter, And wine makes merry;

People drank alcoholic wine in the time of Samuel too!

1 Sam. 1:13-15
Now Hannah spoke in her heart; only her lips moved, but her voice was not heard. Therefore Eli thought she was drunk. So Eli said to her, “How long will you be drunk? Put your wine away from you!”

But Hannah answered and said, “No, my lord, I am a woman of sorrowful spirit. I have drunk neither wine nor intoxicating drink, but have poured out my soul before the Lord.

Isaiah mentions the feast of the Lord with well refined (the best) wine on the lees. This is unmistakably referring to fermented wine. Lees are always associated with the alcoholic wine making process.

Isaiah 25:6 And in this mountain The Lord of hosts will make for all people a feast of choice pieces, a feast of wines on the lees, Of fat things full of marrow, Of well-refined wines on the lees.

At Pentecost, the people were being accused of being drunk with new wine, proof that new wine is alcoholic and was in common use during the time of Christ.

Acts 2:12-13 “Whatever could this mean?” Others mocking said, “They are full of new wine.”


(Cfowler) #37

Regarding tithes…
Deuteronomy 14:24-26

24 But if that place is too distant and you have been blessed by the Lord your God and cannot carry your tithe (because the place where the Lord will choose to put his Name is so far away), 25 then exchange your tithe for silver, and take the silver with you and go to the place the Lord your God will choose. 26 Use the silver to buy whatever you like: cattle, sheep, wine or other fermented drink, or anything you wish. Then you and your household shall eat there in the presence of the Lord your God and rejoice.

@rtmcdge


(Tim Teichman) #38

Sure, why not? As an Angel, it seems the devil could ask for forgiveness.


(Tim Teichman) #39

Yes, of course! No one at a multi-day wedding party wants grape juice.


(Tim Teichman) #40

Sounds like excellent advice to me.