George, My wording was what is at fault, because I certainly do not believe that attending church has anything to do with cleansing, or even with salvation. I must have really been careless in my wording as you are the second to point this out. If I had worded to actually convey what i was trying to say, it would have been: “Those who attend church, I would hope, are all in need of and are longing for God’s forgiveness.” I certainly do not think that attending church in any way assures salvation in any form.
Maybe what you and Tim are bothered by in my little sentence is that it sounds like last generation theology, which I also consider heresy. My real point, aimed at Gerald McDonald’s message to me, was that all of us, LGBTQ+ included, have the same need of God’s grace. He seems to think that someone who is in a committed, monogamous, same-sex, sexual relationship stands in greater need than those of us who are in heterosexual marriages. From my relationships with many LGBTQ+ people, I actually think, if anything, many heterosexuals need more of God’s grace.
I wholeheartedly agree with you, but, I do believe there are some who believe it can be accomplished. They are not, therefore, charlatans themselves, just deeply confused, misinformed and likely a little delusional as well. I just wish such therapy were outlawed nationwide. That way, there would be no excuse for such “therapists” to know that at least what they are doing is illegal.
Got it Bryan! I can see how wording sometimes does not actually represent what one really thinks. And I agree with your position on the issue as you clarified it.
Tim’s reaction and mine were certainly triggered by the fact that we - as many others - are zealous here, to make sure that the definitions of terms are accurate. To avoid leaving loopholes that will be usurped by opportunist individuals who come here to promote heresies and distorted ideas. Like the LGTarians that often land here selling their bad smelling, rotten fish!
Thanks again for clarifying your position. We are indeed on the same page!
George, Elmer –
As I understand it
When you tell someone “Don’t think about that…”
THAT is exactly which the mind focuses on.
Same when the individual’s one side of the Brain, tells the other side of the
Brain, “Don’t think about that…”, that is what the other side of the Brain WILL
When I was 18 and fresh off the boat sort of speak (came to America) I found myself in desperate need of a job. The problem was I had no experience, no reference, no skills and could barely master the English language. For all intents and purposes I was unqualified to work in any major company because I had “nothing” to offer. Yet I ventured out looking for a job with the help of an employment agency that charged me the first month’s salary of any job I managed to get. And so armed with nothing but my desire and need to work I applied at a Life Insurance company a half a block down the street from the White House. My interview was a complete failure as expected due to the lack of an “impressive” resume and knowledge of any administrative duties as simple as filing. I already knew that when I presented myself but I felt I deserved the chance to show that I had the desire and drive to succeed. I was offered a position as an office help serving coffee to the company’s executives, keeping the lunch room clean and helping in the mailing room. Without hesitating at all I accepted the job and the rest is history. That set the precedent for all my many jobs I dared to apply even without the qualifications providing experience in a variety of different tasks. Why am I relating this story? Because when I decided at the same age to join the SDA church that level of acceptance or willingness to give me a young, inexperienced sinner who desired to give her heart to Jesus, was not there. I could not be baptized unless I submitted to all the requirements and showed I understood it and would live by it and accept not just the Bible but all the teachings of EGW. Needless to say the fact the I had fallen in love with Jesus meant very little to this organization because it was more important for them, that I paid tithe, didn’t drink, didn’t wear jewelry, didn’t have sex, didn’t drink coffee, didn’t dance, didn’t go to the movies, didn’t curse, didn’t smoke, didn’t eat meat, and God forbid touch pork and all the unclean foods, didn’t marry anyone unless they would submit to the same requirements. Fortunately I am still in love with Jesus and I will always be. Not because of any denomination or requirements or qualifications, but because I never doubted He loved me first and He guided me then and guides me now. What the LGBTQ community is going through is what we all go through with the SDA church but now it has a name. I ask myself if the organization ever considered that times would change and what transpired in 1884 is a far cry from what the world is today. And truthfully before I finish here I really think the fear is that if the LGBTQ community moves away from the SDA church it will be a huge financial loss for the GC and I am sure they are considering that very carefully. Blessings to all.
Exactly Steve. Saying “no”, or “don’t” actually enhances curiosity.
For example, if some says, “Don’t do such an such because it may have 'grave consequences’,” that’s probably exactly what people will do.
Or if someone threats a certain behavior with kompliance kommandos, curiosity will be enhanced, and people will start asking, “:Did the komrades attack yet?”
Or, if there is a threat that TW may seek re-election in 2020, … well… I will leave it here…
Hypocrisy is one of the worst things on this planet, and in this Church as well. As I read Milton Hook’s biography of Desmond Ford a couple of weeks ago, I was horrified by the outrageous behavior of so many people at the high echelon of this Denomination. I mean, just to mention a few, the behavior of people like Neil Wilson, Parmenter, the Standish brothers, and another bunch of them is nothing but as shameful as it could be. The lies, the dishonesty, the politicking, the maneuvering, the ill intention, the falsehood - all a true disgrace to a group called Church. Those people cannot be considered Christians. No way!
A few days ago I asked Des’ wife Gill @gford1 why Des stayed interacting with such a corrupt group for so long, suffering real religious persecution. She explained that he was an idealist who believed that he could influence the Church to become better. I wish!
Maybe the best result of Des’ insistence (or stubbornness) was that those so called Christian leaders ended up exposing who they really were, and how they were corrupting the power in their hands, so that we all could see it and would not be surprised if/when all those outrageous behaviors happened again. And we have indeed seen them being repeated in some way over and over throughout the years.
George it did not take me long to leave the church and when that happened I was chastised by those who supposedly had brought me to the “truth” or their “truth” if I may, for not “obeying” the “rules” and running around with a young woman who had a reputation similar to Mary of Magdalene. Mind you my “mary” was a true, loving and caring young lady who was there to pick me up on my desperate hour of need. In spite of all the negative experiences I never lost my desire to commune with God and fellow believers so I returned to the church and was baptized again. For many years after that I tried to “excuse” these judgemental, uncaring and unkind behaviors towards people who simply did not fit “the dogma” and ways so characteristic of SDA members who see themselves as Saviors of the world because they have a special message, the ONLY message. Until I could not do it anymore and walked away for good. The truth does set people free but if that truth is distorted, twisted to the point where you doubt yourself and your basic common sense, it simply keeps you captive. I know many people still living in the shackles of promised redemption if they work at living the perfect SDA life. Yes I heard of the “evil” Desmond Ford and how important it was to stay away from his heresy. Demonize a person for questioning the church and for making it public. Wow!
For me Desmond Ford was the most brilliant theologian the SDAC ever had. Top of the top. His “problem” was that he was an honest Christian who dared to expose the SDA fallacy about 1844. Just so simple.
Isn’t that what we’re doing here? Sorta like taking a trip and never leaving the farm.
You nailed it! I was just talking to someone yesterday and I asked exactly that “would you let a member of the LGBTQ community serve as a Deacon or any office in the church?”, and the answer was “NO”…that would be the majority of the SDA churches.
Such a nugget of truth. Yes, many times the church has effectively asked me to check my intellect at the door, to discredit much of the reality I see around me as fantasy - because they think the bible (clearly a science textbook) teaches something else.
They behave just as the RCC did when they persecuted Galileo for teaching that the earth was not the center of the cosmos. Something the bible clearly teaches (so they thought.)
From Wikipedia, "The matter was investigated by the Roman Inquisition in 1615, which concluded that heliocentrism [the sun is the center of the solar system] was “foolish and absurd in philosophy, and formally heretical since it explicitly contradicts in many places the sense of Holy Scripture”.
The church continues to deride knowledge and facts that they think contradict biblical teaching - they foolishly continue to use the bible as if it is a valid source for scientific understanding and history. It is not meant to be either.
What drove me out of the church was exactly that level of ignorance, intolerance and lack of respect for anything that is not SDA born, bred and fed. I subjected my children to a high level of guilty because the idea was to be a devout Sabbath keeper, be educated in Adventists schools and eventually marry an SDA follower. None of which ever came to be. When I think that I forced them to perform the rituals or sundown on Friday, yelled at them to have the house clean before Sabbath, and never considered eating out on that day because it would be sacrilegious, I cringe even now. My children turned out amazing and I have actually learned so much from them but I have asked forgiviness for such abherrant behavior that did not even come close to resembling Jesus’ love for us. Yet there are many people I have met who practice all these nonsense but have retained their truselves, loving, caring, nurturing and non judgemental. Amazing grace. That is how I have learned from the Master.
That’s the one I highly recommend. I even charge for that!.. LOL
How many more years do you think it will take for Adventists to surrender and accept what the book of Hebrews teaches?
Or what the bible actually says, not what they see there through their confirmation bias filter?
OK, so what’s in Hebrews that isn’t accepted?
Personally, I prefer conversation therapy .
I have a big problem George. Do you or Elmer or Kim have any therapy for being gray?
I wish you hadn’t said that Steve…
But we don’t give up though, right?
I don’t have those thoughts that often, so I can’t relate. Everyone’s fight is different.