“Room for Everyone”: Swedish Union Issues Statement about LGBT+ Individuals


(Michael Wortman) #121

Yes. In vulnerable populations low doses are recommended, and perhaps some of the benefits such as increased athletic performance and increased alertness necessary to perform certain tasks are based on limited doses, but don’t overlook some of the positive research results based on studies of populations that ingest 5 or more cups of coffee per day (caffeinated or non caffeinated) ,


(George Tichy) #122

You forgot to include the passage(s) where Jesus said it. Please complete you statement properly by indicating you source.


(George Tichy) #123

Any medication, or food ingested in excessive quantity can be bad and even fatal. Eating 90 bananas at once can be fatal. Drinking three gallong of water at once can also be gatal.

There is no argument against moderation and self-control.


(George Tichy) #124

And what is the “ritual practice” that you are talking about?
I am very uncomfortable with the word “ritual” because it reminds me of “cult.”
I hope you will be willing to define the “ritual.”


(Steve Mga) #125

In my Sunday church there is 7 weeks of Eastertide. Celebrate Easter with
the Lectionary readings. Mostly the Gospel comes from John’s discourse by
Jesus at the Last Supper, and this week was His prayer – for Himself, for
the disciples, for those who believe what they bring down to you and me.
I conduct a Bible Study and Communion Service [Methodist style – no wine]
on Monday afternoons in my apt building. And we study the readings
for the day [Sunday] before. This week after our study I passed out 1John
for them to take home and think about.
This coming Sunday is the Birthday of the Church – Pentecost. It is ALSO
the celebration by the Jews of the giving of the Law at Sinai [7weeks plus
one day]
All our Sunday members wear something with red, yellow, orange on. We have
red balloons around the worship space, and red streamers from the ceiling fans.
Liturgy helps us to have Fun with God while we worship WITH Them.
Have you ever seen the Russian painting of the Trinity sitting around a small table
enjoying a meal, and there is a spot that used to have a small mirror where a 4th
chair is. We see ourselves in that mirror eating and having conversation with the
Trinity.
The Psalm reading – Instead of just reading the Psalm for the day together, we
sing the Psalms each week to one of the Psalm hymn tunes in our Song book.
Jewish congregations in worship also enjoy singing varied tunes to their Psalm
“reading”.
I don’t get any of that at my Sabbath SDA service where I attend each week.


(Gerald McDonald) #126

GraceBased, is this referring to something specific, like homosexuality?
God calls the practice of homosexuality an abomination. God does not change His mind about sin.
Now a person who has attraction to one of the same sex, is as innocent as the man who resists the temptation to run around on his wife. As long as these temptations are not acted upon, this means that they are being resisted.

But consider all of us, who continually yields over and over again to temptation, even though we know that Christ has the power to cleanse us, are without a doubt choosing another love over God. They are choosing another god over the true God. It is not just a matter of falling and then asking forgiveness. Although it is provided when we come humbly and with the intentions of allowing God to live inside us.
But God tells us that He can not fill us with His Spirit if we continue in our sins.


(Gerald McDonald) #127

First off, just because something is a ritual, that doesn’t make it wrong, of no value, or not a commandment. (especially if it is given as a commandment or directly pointed out. Especially more than once).
Second, we will always be worshiping. If it isn’t God, it will be ourselves and therefore satan.

And if the Sabbath has become a ritual then you are not realizing the enormity for which the Sabbath was given.

Consider that God did not need to make the Sabbath. He did not need to make the week or the days.He did it so that we would always have a reason to take time off to spend with Him.
Remember that God told us that knowing Him was life eternal. And spending with God on the Day that He set aside to spend with us, is like having that anniversary with your wife. That date with your children.
The Sabbath is not just a day. It is a promise being fulfilled way before it was told it in the Gospels. God set that day aside so that we could depend on His promise that He would be with us always. Even unto the end of the world.


(Maria V. Blair) #128

First of all you called the Sabbath a “ritual” but you also said “if the Sabbath has become a ritual then you are not realizing the enormity, etc.”, so is it a “ritual” or not? What makes you so sure that if a person does not believe in God he is either worshiping himself or Satan? If a person does not believe in God he/she also does not believe in Satan and why would they worship themselves if they don’t believe in anything?

What Sabbath are you ritualing observing? If it is the Biblical Sabbath is it the Old or the New Testament one? Did Jesus observe the ritual Sabbath you observe?

With all due respect to you Mr. McDonald the Sabbath is many things for many different people and unless you go back to the way it was commanded by the Jewish law, I would say the Sabbath “ritual” has undergone many changes, wouldn’t you?


(Maria V. Blair) #129

First of all you called the Sabbath a “ritual” but you also said “if the Sabbath has become a ritual then you are not realizing the enormity, etc.”, so is it a “ritual” or not? What makes you so sure that if a person does not believe in God he is either worshiping himself or Satan? If a person does not believe in God he/she also does not believe in Satan and why would they worship themselves if they don’t believe in anything?

What Sabbath are you ritualing observing? If it is the Biblical Sabbath is it the Old or the New Testament one? Did Jesus observe the ritual Sabbath you observe?

With all due respect to you Mr. McDonald the Sabbath is many things for many different people and unless you go back to the way it was commanded by the Jewish law, I would say the Sabbath “ritual” has undergone many changes, wouldn’t you?


(Butch Jones) #130

No, read what I said. Immoral, not sin. For me to have sexual thoughts about someone who is not my wife is also immoral, only if I entertain those thoughts have I sinned. Those thoughts will enter my brain, our brains, we can’t stop what pops in our head, but it’s what we do with those thoughts that makes it a sin or not.

You seem kinda angry…

I’m not going to address all your questions because they’re not relevant to what my point is.


(David) #131

I don’t believe Jesus ever said we should stay away from wine (just don’t over do it). Ellen, on the other hand…

I’ll take Jesus’ Word over Ellen’s any day! Ellen’s word is not the gospel.

Matt. 11:18-19 For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, ‘He has a demon.’ The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, ‘Look, a glutton and a winebibber, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!’

Clearly, Jesus drank wine. How do we know? Because, unlike John (shall drink neither wine nor strong drink Luke 1:15), He said He did; "the Son of Man came eating and drinking and they say, ‘look … a winebibber’. Winebibber implies the drinking of alcoholic wine. He wasn’t referring to water!

Matt. 9:17: Nor do they put new wine into old wineskins, or else the wineskins break, the wine is spilled, and the wineskins are ruined. But they put new wine into new wineskins, and both are preserved.”

They didn’t have canning technology back then. Grape juice would go bad after a matter of days (if it wasn’t cooked it would turn into wine). Wine on the other hand, due to its alcohol content, is able to last quite awhile if exposure to air is limited. The only way Jesus’ analogy makes any sense is if we are talking about alcoholic wine. I’ve never run any tests but I would venture to guess that the alcohol in the wine is hard on the fibers of the wineskins and thus new wineskins are required for new wine.

Luke 5:39: And no one, having drunk old wine, immediately desires new; for he says, ‘The old is better.’ ”

This is a clear reference to the principle that wine gets better with age. No one in their right mind would say that about grape juice!

Luke 10:33-34 But a certain Samaritan, as he journeyed, came where he was. And when he saw him, he had compassion. So he went to him and bandaged his wounds, pouring on oil and wine;

The alcohol in the wine acts as an antiseptic. Grape juice would only exacerbate the wound and make a sugary mess.

John 2:9-10: When the master of the feast had tasted the water that was made wine, and did not know where it came from (but the servants who had drawn the water knew), the master of the feast called the bridegroom. And he said to him, “Every man at the beginning sets out the good wine, and when the guests have well drunk, then the inferior. You have kept the good wine until now!”

This text can only make sense if the beverage is alcoholic wine. After drinking a couple glasses of wine it becomes harder to distinguish the quality of the wine, hence they serve the best wine first (normally).

Isaiah 25:6: And in this mountain

The Lord of hosts will make for all people
A feast of choice pieces,
A feast of wines on the lees,
Of fat things full of marrow,
Of well-refined wines on the lees.

In the process of wine making, the lees are often left for awhile (maybe a month) and stirred daily to improve the mouth feel of the wine. Isaiah is clearly referring to God’s preparing a quality well-refined wine for His people (a feast of Truth). I think of God as the Master Winemaker. After all, He’s the one who created the vine!

@Nymous


(David) #132

There’s a message in the number of baskets left over.
@niteguy2


(ROBIN VANDERMOLEN) #133

BUTCH JONES ,

You state:

The desire for sex with someone of the same sex IS a desire and is an immoral desire

As a physician, may I call a spade a spade?.

A “desire for sex “ in blunt medical terms is a PENILE ERECTION.

Please be advised,
in case you are too old to remember,
that adolescent penile erections
happen quite spontaneously and often without premeditation.

You as a heterosexual teenager,
had these embarrassing bulges in your pants,
when you saw a pretty girl,
— certainly when you held hands with her or kissed her. —-
These erections ( sexual desires )
were quite predictable and NORMAL, and not immoral!

PLEASE BE ADVISED THAT TEENAGE GAY BOYS
GET THESE SAME UNPREDICTABLE, SPONTANEOUS ERECTIONS, ALSO.

II is just when they see some handsome male actor on the TV screen,
( just as you reacted to some screen sex siren, way back when )
or when they see a hunky football player on the high school team
( just as you reacted to that sexy cheerleader, way back when ).

These “sexual desires “ otherwise known as ERECTIONS
happen just as readily to gay boys
as they do to their heterosexual siblings and cousins .
— it is just that the visual stimuli are different.

Please be advised that gay boys have the same levels of sex hormones,
in their blood streams,
initiating these erections,
as do their straight siblings and cousins.
——prepubertal boys, lacking sex hormones, have no erections…

You clearly believe in a SADISTIC God
( Satan has zero creative powers )
who creates five per cent of the planet’s population,
who through zero fault of their own,
get erections to same sex stimuli,
but whom you say should never in their lifetimes,
be able to follow through with these desires
activated by sex hormonal panels
identical to their straight brothers / cousins .

As gay Presidential Candidate Pete Buttigieg so eloquently opined:

IF YOU HAVE A PROBLEM WITH WHO I AM,
YOUR PROBLEM IS NOT WITH ME,

YOU HAVE A QUARREL, SIR, WITH MY CREATOR.

Only a cruel, callous, cold blooded God would create millions of sexual beings,

( yes there are MILLIONS of LGBT on this planet,
all of whom had ZERO input / choice / selection
that they wished to be created gay / lesbian—
—-who in their right minds would CHOOSE to be in a
persecuted, marginalized minority ?? ).

and He created them complete with sexual hormones and desires,

and then He condemned them, though no fault of their own,

to a lifetime of LONELINESS and LOVELESSNESS
and a lifetime of zero romance, nor sexual,fulfillment.

I would rather be an atheist that have to worship
such a cruel, compassionless, Creator.

Next time YOU get a spontaneous erection
(. unless you are now in the VIAGRA AGE ),
think this through, compassionately and not with condemnation!


(David) #134

I can’t speak for anyone else but the sabbath for me is a defense against receiving the mark of Constantine. Constantine couldn’t find rest if his name depended on it!
@rendeira


#135

Dear @Butch_Jones,

No, I’m not angry. Do you believe someone who asks you questions is angry? :open_mouth:

It seems, rather, that you might be irked to be asked these relevant questions.

Do you know someone who is gay? Who has lost a gay child? Who has gone through conversion therapy? @bigtomwoodcutter has described on this site his experiences with both. He, an ordained elder in the Adventist Church, maybe yours, can attest to this and you can read his experiences here at this site.

I’m asking them again with respect and hope you respect the sincerity because this topic is a major topic in the church, its members, its children, leaders, and society.


(David) #136

I had to banish that entire thought ezbord. It was way too stimulating :crazy_face:.
@ezbord


(Elmer Cupino) #137

Weren’t there 144,000 baskets of food left?

@niteguy2


#138

How do those who do not favor an inclusive church get around this?


(David) #139

I don’t feel normal until I get my therapeutic dose.
@niteguy2


(ROBIN VANDERMOLEN) #140

David,

The latest medical wisdom / research indicates that up to FOUR CUPS of ARABICA coffee a day kills off prostate cancer cells — there are at least two chemical compounds in coffee that mitigate against prostate cancer —- the leading killer of men in our time!
Was EGW a male hater when she banned coffee?

But how did this conversation about gay sex, deviate into beverage consumption, —-wine, and coffee ??

Obviously our. church’s multiple proscriptions against a myriad of normal activities, obscure the simple Gospel truth that Christ loves everyone, even the alcoholics, even the gays, and yes, even those addicted coffee drinkers!