Seventh-day Adventist Church Responds to Equality Act


(Steve Mga) #259

For some ODD reason, my Jewish friends follow the same calendar that I do.
Worship on the same 7 day cycle that I do.
Light their Sabbath candles one hour before Sunset on Friday evening.
Conduct their opening of the Sabbath service rituals on Friday evening.
They DO announce when the Jewish month is by the moon phases.
But STILL follow the same Calendar of months that I do.
Many of their same holidays fall with my religious holidays.
We just completed 50 days after Passover AND Easter. 6/9 weekend we
celebrated Israel becoming a Nation at Mt. Sinai with the giving of the Law.
6/9 weekend was 50 days after Easter [7 weeks of Eastertide] and celebrated
the Birthday of the Christian church and the giving of the Holy Spirit.


(David) #260

Absolutely.

saturday on the Gregorian calendar is the very same day that Israel observed. If it wasn’t, Christ would not be ruling over the world as He now does.

The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever. (Rev. 11:15)


(Cfowler) #261

I think most Jews do follow the Gregorian calendar now. They do so in Israel as well for Sabbaths, but their holy days are still calculated by the lunar calendar, at least in Israel that is.

From www.jewfaq.org:
The lunar month on the Jewish calendar begins when the first sliver of moon becomes visible after the dark of the moon. In ancient times, the new months used to be determined by observation. When people observed the new moon, they would notify the Sanhedrin. When the Sanhedrin heard testimony from two independent, reliable eyewitnesses that the new moon occurred on a certain date, they would declare the rosh chodesh (first of the month) and send out messengers to tell people when the month began.


(Cfowler) #262

How can it be the same day when the Jews followed a lunar calendar for the months. The month started at the sighting of the new moon?

I don’t follow that line of reasoning. Can you elaborate?


(David) #263

saturday on the Gregorian calendar is the very same day that Israel observed

The Jews followed a weekly cycle as well as the monthly cycle. There was an offering for the weekly sabbath as well as for the new moon - both were independent of each other. The cycle of weeks correspond to a man and the cycle of months correspond to a woman (i.e., the menstrual cycle). The marriage between the Lamb and the Heavenly Jerusalem is the marriage between the year of weeks and the year of months.

If it wasn’t, Christ would not be ruling over the world as He now does.

The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever. (Rev. 11:15)

Rev. 11:5 has been fulfilled. The world operates on the weekly cycle that was established at the Gregorian reform. That reform was pre-ordained by God Himself and through that reform Christ became King of the world and reigns over the nations.


#264

And this is taught where in the scriptures? :astonished::face_with_monocle:


(Cfowler) #265

That doesn’t change the fact that the month started when the new moon was sighted and the day count began then. That isn’t how the Gregorian calendar works, so Sabbath can’t be the exact same day as Sabbath in Israel then.

Really? Can you elaborate on this?

I don’t follow this either.


(David) #266

There was an offering for the weekly sabbath as well as for the new moon - both were independent of each other.

1 Chronicles 23:31
at every presentation of a burnt offering to the Lord on the Sabbaths and on the New Moons and on the set feasts, by number according to the ordinance governing them, regularly before the Lord;

The cycle of weeks correspond to a man and the cycle of months correspond to a woman (i.e., the menstrual cycle).

Menses: “monthly discharge of blood from the uterus,” 1590s, from Latin menses, plural of mensis “month” (see moon (n.)). https://www.etymonline.com/word/menses

The cycle of weeks belong to the solar year. The cycle of months belong to the lunar year. In the interpretation of Joseph’s dream Jacob identifies the moon with his wife and the sun with himself.

Genesis 31:9-10 Then he dreamed still another dream and told it to his brothers, and said, “Look, I have dreamed another dream. And this time, the sun, the moon, and the eleven stars bowed down to me.”
So he told it to his father and his brothers; and his father rebuked him and said to him, “What is this dream that you have dreamed? Shall your mother and I and your brothers indeed come to bow down to the earth before you?”

Revelation 12 gives a picture of the lunar year.
Rev. 12:1 Now a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a garland of twelve stars.

The marriage between the Lamb and the Heavenly Jerusalem is the marriage between the year of weeks and the year of months.

Rev. 19:7: Let us be glad and rejoice and give Him glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His wife has made herself ready.”

Rev. 21:9: Come, I will show you the bride, the Lamb’s wife.”
Rev. 21:3,10,12,14,21: Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me the great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God, Also she had a great and high wall with twelve gates, and twelve angels at the gates, and names written on them, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel: three gates on the east, three gates on the north, three gates on the south, and three gates on the west.
14 Now the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb. 21 The twelve gates were twelve pearls: each individual gate was of one pearl.


(David) #267

The Jews followed a weekly cycle as well as the monthly cycle.

The new moon can fall on any day of the week. Therefore the week and the month are independent.

The day count began with the new moon? What do you base that on? I’ve never heard that before. Do you have a source?

What I hear you saying is the day count starts and ends with every month. That doesn’t make any sense. Where’s the week in all this? Like I said, the new moon can fall on any day of the week, the week being a perpetual cycle.

Why not? I don’t follow your reasoning.

The cycle of weeks correspond to a man and the cycle of months correspond to a woman (i.e., the menstrual cycle). The marriage between the Lamb and the Heavenly Jerusalem is the marriage between the year of weeks and the year of months.

See my reply to Harrpa

Rev. 11:5 has been fulfilled. The world operates on the weekly cycle that was established at the Gregorian reform. That reform was pre-ordained by God Himself and through that reform Christ became King of the world and reigns over the nations.

That’s okay. There are some missing pieces that I’m not willing to share on spectrum. I do intend to give a full explanation in a book that I will be publishing.
@cfowler


(Tim Teichman) #268

There is no continuous week on the Jewish calendar. It is said there is no concept of weeks on their calendar - just 6 days between sabbaths within a month.

The idea of weeks - and weeks in continuous repetition - came from Rome, at about the time of Jesus, but was not in common practice until centuries later when Rome finally enforced their calendar with military action throughout the empire.

There wasn’t one. At least not one that continued indefinitely. Each lunar month restarted the sequence.

And God said, “Let there be lights in the vault of the sky to separate the day from the night, and let them serve as signs to mark sacred times, and days and years… - Gen 1.

And that is what the people did. They used the sun and the moon to define their date-keeping. No weeks needed.


(David) #269

You got me there :thinking::thinking::thinking::thinking::thinking::thinking::thinking:


(Cfowler) #270

Yes, the beginning of the month was dependent on the new moon sighting…so the count of 7 days would be different from the way we do it now using the Gregorian calendar.

There are lots of sources…this is a historical fact. Here are a few.

https://www.gotquestions.org/new-moon-Bible.html
Question: “What was the significance of the new moon in Bible times?”

Answer: The significance of the new moon in Bible times is that it marked the beginning of a new month (the Hebrew calendar is lunar-based), and it was a time when the Israelites were to bring an offering to God. The beginning of the month was known not by astronomical calculations but by the testimony of messengers appointed to watch for the first visible appearance of the new moon. As soon as the first sliver was seen, the fact was announced throughout the whole country by signal fires on the mountaintops and the blowing of trumpets. The Hebrew word for “month” ( hodesh ) literally means “new moon.”

http://www.jewfaq.org/calendar.htm
The lunar month on the Jewish calendar begins when the first sliver of moon becomes visible after the dark of the moon. In ancient times, the new months used to be determined by observation. When people observed the new moon, they would notify the Sanhedrin. When the Sanhedrin heard testimony from two independent, reliable eyewitnesses that the new moon occurred on a certain date, they would declare the rosh chodesh (first of the month) and send out messengers to tell people when the month began.

https://www.compellingtruth.org/new-moon-Bible.html
The Hebrew calendar is lunar-based and the new moon marked the beginning of each new month and triggered offerings to God and certain festivals. The Hebrew word for month ( hodesh ) literally means “new moon.” Interestingly, the new moon wasn’t calculated or foretold by a calendar, but announced by watchers looking for the very initial sign of a new moon. When two of these watchers reported seeing a bit of the moon, trumpets would sound and signal fires lit to spread the word.


The Hebrew calendar is a lunisolar calendar, meaning that months are based on lunar months, but years are based on solar years.[14] The calendar year features twelve lunar months of twenty-nine or thirty days, with an intercalary lunar month added periodically to synchronize the twelve lunar cycles with the longer solar year. (These extra months are added seven times every nineteen years. See Leap months, below.) The beginning of each Jewish lunar month is based on the appearance of the new moon.[15] Although originally the new lunar crescent had to be observed and certified by witnesses,[16] the moment of the true new moon is now approximated arithmetically as the molad, which is the mean new moon to a precision of one part.

There’s tons of info about this. It has been interesting and enlightening for me to learn how time was reckoned in the OT, which would include how Sabbath was determined.


(George Tichy) #271

Hurry up guys! You have only 4 days left to find a solution for the problem… :slight_smile:


(David) #272

None of the links you’ve provided say anything about the sabbath day being determined by the new moon. The new moon determines the start of the month not the week. If you look on a modern jewish calendar you will see that the seventh day of the week falls on the same day as the Gregorian saturday.


(Tim Teichman) #273

I don’t think the somewhat difficult idea that there were no continuous weeks is sinking in. It wasn’t a concept they had.

Instead, as ordered in Genesis, their calendar used the sun and the moon to measure time. Nothing else.

Originally sabbaths were always on the 1st, 8th, 15th, 22nd, and 29th day of every month. Every time a day of the month is mentioned in the bible and it is one of these days, that is a sabbath.

Today is Sivan 9, 5779 on the Jewish calendar - it is the day after sabbath, which was on the 8th.


(David) #274

@timteichman, @cfowler, @niteguy2

The new moon determines the start of the month not the week.

Not difficult, just wrong! It doesn’t even pass the snicker test! There’s also the idea (held by a minority) that there was no lunar landing! I don’t give that idea any mind either.

Deut. 16:9 [ The Feast of Weeks Reviewed ] “You shall count seven weeks for yourself; begin to count the seven weeks from the time you begin to put the sickle to the grain.

Dan. 9:24 “Seventy weeks are determined For your people and for your holy city,

“The Hebrew calendar follows a seven-day weekly cycle, which runs concurrently with but independently of the monthly and annual cycles. The names for the days of the week, like those in the creation account, are simply the day number within the week, with Shabbat being the seventh day. Each day of the week runs from sunset to the following sunset and is figured locally. …
The rest day, Shabbat, has a special role in the Jewish weekly cycle as being a special and set apart day, where no work is done. There are many special rules that relate to Shabbat, discussed more fully in the Talmudic tractate Shabbat.”

“The Hebrew seven-day week, ending with the Sabbath, presented so obvious a resemblance to the Babylonian septenary period, which closed with an “evil day”, that scholars have felt themselves compelled to seek its origin in Babylonia. The two institutions, nevertheless, show important differences. The Babylonian cycle, as far as we know, was never employed as a chronological unit; the Hebrew week was a true civil week, a definite and well-understood period of time. The Babylonian cycle seems not to have been dissociated from the lunation; the Hebrew week was a periodic week, running unfettered from month to month, and from year to year…To dissever the week from the lunar month, to employ it as a recognized calendrical unit, and to fix upon one day of that week for the exercises of religion were momentous innovations, which until evidence to the contrary is found, must be attributed to the Hebrew people alone.”
Rest Days, Hutton Webster, 1916

If you look on a modern jewish calendar you will see that the seventh day of the week falls on the same day as the Gregorian saturday.

Your way of counting makes every 8th day (after the new moon) a sabbath! Where does that come from? And what of a 30 day month? Does the 30th day just become a ho hum day? Do you have a source for this new way of thinking?

That’s funny! I looked on the Jewish calendar and couldn’t see what you see. Probably because it wasn’t there. The sabbath on the Jewish calendar is clearly the 7th day of the week!

https://www.torah-box.net/calendar/?sc=1&utm_source=adwords&gclid=Cj0KCQjw6IfoBRCiARIsAF6q06tBzNWMhUKTTOqOwxtV8te2JZr1kvzFH-Xti9F2ouw2bIP70ggEixsaApdUEALw_wcB


(Tim Teichman) #275

You’re using a modern English translation to prove your point. But while the translators use the word “week”, the original word used was “šā·ḇu·‘ōṯ”, the literal meaning being a period of seven (days or years), a heptad (a group or set of seven), and (modern) “a week”.

We have weeks on our calendar, and they had “seven days”. But they did not have what we call a week, something which repeats indefinitely independent of months.


(David) #276

Deut… 16:9 [ The Feast of Weeks Reviewed ] “You shall count seven weeks for yourself; begin to count the seven weeks from the time you begin to put the sickle to the grain.

Please read what you wrote above: “Translators used the word week while the literal meaning is seven days.”

Here, I’ll quote it for you again (you may have missed it the first time).

The Hebrew calendar follows a seven-day weekly cycle, which runs concurrently with but independently of the monthly and annual cycles. The names for the days of the week, like those in the creation account, are simply the day number within the week, with Shabbat being the seventh day."

I don’t think it can be any clearer!

@timteichman, @cfowler, @niteguy2


(Steve Mga) #277

We just finished the “Feast of [7] weeks” with The Giving of the Law at Sinai for
the Jews, and Pentecost, the giving of the Holy Spirit.
Both events on the same day celebration. The making of Israel into a “Nation”.
and the founding of the Christian Church.

Actually, Leviticus says, 7 weeks and 1 day = 50 days.


(David) #278

If it looks like duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it probably is a duck :duck:.