Seventh-day Adventist Church Responds to Equality Act

(David) #117

In Washington state it was the Flower Lady “Arlene’s”.

Two gay men asked her to create flower arrangements for their planned wedding. She respectfully declined citing her religious convictions about marriage (she had sold flowers to them before and had no problem with that).

The two gay men got all militant and cried discrimination to the State.

The State ruled that Arlene was being discriminatory and censored her for it. So much for the right to observe your own religious beliefs in Washington State! I wonder when Washington will force stores to take down their signs saying, “No shirt, no shoes, no service”.

Anyone who doesn’t think the gays have an agenda has their heads buried in the sand. All you have to do is watch a gay pride march to see what I mean.

(David) #118

Except on their face - not allowed. Must grow beards. Mormonism would never fly in Mecca.

(George Tichy) #119

Do ya think that the black suited guys upstairs (GC) at the AC/18 were actually testing the feeling of having a beard as a preparation for “destination MECCA???” :laughing:


We aren’t in a theocracy anymore. God does not make direct decisions based on his intimate knowledge and give us the results so in no way possible is this a comparison that should even be addressed…


Are you talking about Trumps lies?


Obama also received a ton of abuse. The difference is that Trump deserves it and more…

(Patrick Travis) #123

Rod, What on earth are you talking about?

(Tim Teichman) #124

Their agenda is to be treated equally - to not be discriminated against.

I can’t comprehend how Arlene thinks that by forcing her personal ideas on those men she was being a better Christian. WWJD? Not what she did.

Maybe she sees this as a sort of outreach: “You are so wrong that I can’t help you. My beliefs are so much finer and righter than yours that you need to go away.”


Are the Federal payments in the US paid to the school directly or to the student?

(Steve Mga) #126

I am acquainted with quite a number of Muslim men here. Some have
nicely trimmed beards, and others are clean shaven.
Look like the white population except some have that “suntan” skin.
St Francis Episcopal interacts with their religious community some
during the year. Nice people.
During Lenten Season, St. Francis and St.Peter Clavier Catholic church on
Tuesday evenings join together for a potluck supper and devotional related
to Lent.
Back in 2005 I attended Sunday PM Celtic services for entertainment only.
And have been having an enjoyable time ever since. All of my Volunteer
opportunities have come through St. Francis members. I have been blessed.

(David) #127

It looks to me like they forced their personal ideas on Arlene and used the power of the state to do it.

Jesus wouldn’t have done that.


(2nd Opinion) #128

In the case of PELL grants (a type of federal grant), the money is paid out to the student through the college/university not directly from the U.S. Department of Education.

(Tim Teichman) #129

No, they just wanted some flowers and were rightfully put out when she refused. Asking for flowers from a florist doesn’t force anything on them. Except an order for flowers.

By your measure a person like Arlene couldn’t sell anything to anyone if they were going to use it in a way they didn’t agree with. Which is non-nonsensical and has nothing to do with faith.

(shshsh) #130

Oh, that is too funny! You have not listened to the facts. They are available!

(David) #131

No, they didn’t just want some flowers. They wanted the owner to use her artistic talent in creating floral arrangements for a gay wedding that she believed violated her biblically based religious beliefs. The guy could have gone elsewhere. He had been a longstanding customer and bought flowers from the owner before.

The issue is the wedding. It all boiled down to the two gay guys not giving a rip about someone else’s beliefs and religious rights. They went to the State to force their gay agenda on the owner of the flower shop, an owner who had served them for years. It’s a sad commentary on Washington State. The first amendment right of all Americans is under attack in this country. The SDA church has an honorable track record in support of the first amendment to the constitution.

"The case dates to 2013, when Ingersoll asked Stutzman to create flower arrangements for his upcoming wedding to Freed.

Ingersoll was a longtime customer of the flower shop on Lee Boulevard.

Stutzman refused, citing her religious beliefs about marriage."


(David) #132

They all MECCA me crazy!

(Tim Teichman) #133

Yes, that’s what I wrote. They wanted some flowers. It doesn’t matter what the flowers would be used for.

If it did…
By this standard, she would need to know exactly what every sale will be used for and then check it against her personal lists of acceptable or not acceptable activities. It’s ridiculous.

What if they were to be used in a Catholic church, and she’s not Catholic? They would improve the service, no doubt, wouldn’t they? But Catholic’s teach things she “knows” to be wrong!

What if they were to be put in the foyer of a Jewish Synagogue? We “know” the Jews killed Jesus, so that can’t be right, can it?

What if the person buying the flowers was going to take them to a Planned Parenthood clinic for display?

What if the person buying a corsage was going to wear it to a gay wedding?

What if she’s a pacifist and the US Army tried to buy a bunch of flowers for the local base, but she knows all forms of war and volence are wrong?

What if she’s a Jehiova’s Witness and the flowers would be used in a blood donation clinic?

The list could go on and on.

How about a Kosher butcher who knows you’ll be cooking his meat in a non-Kosher kitchen, thus defiling it. Should he have to sell his meat, blessed by God, to you?

Should you sell your car to a Satanist? To a Nazi? To a Communist? To a Republican? After all, they all believe different than you.

Only small mindedness makes any of this make sense. It’s exclusionary, other-fearing, and so on. As Christians, our impulse should be to reach out, to pull others closer so they can see the positive effect our faith has on us, not to exclude and ‘other’ people away from the church.

(David) #134

We disagree Tim. No hard feelings.

I do appreciate and value your opinion. Who knows, I may come around to your way of thinking. That’s the beauty of discussion; we are always able to adjust midstream.

It’s a complex and divisive issue with no easy answers. I think it’s important for both sides to have cool heads (easier said than done).

(David) #135

For your information Tim, I have family members who are gay. I treat them all with respect. I have a female cousin who is a lesbian, has a doctorate in psychology, and is a councilor at the DOD in Washington D.C. I have an adopted nephew who wants to be a woman, dresses like a drag queen, and goes by the name Harlene instead of Earnie. He happens to live in the city of Arlene’s Flowers. He is still trying to figure things out (he has other issues). I have a brother-in-law who has a brother who is gay - retired from the department of motor vehicles in Portland.

They are all valuable contributors to our society, obviously.

I don’t live in a vacuum and I do empathize with the concerns that gay people have. Like I said, it is a complex issue with no easy answers.


This is so true.

It is too simplistic to make it an either/or issue of selling flowers or cakes for gay weddings.

As @timteichman has pointed out, extrapolation of this gets us into very complex arenas:
To bring it home, does an honest Adventist work at an Adventist Book Center that sells George Knight’s books if he or she disagrees with his theology?

Does an Adventist professor teach at a state university that teaches other courses with which he or she disagrees?

Does a health care employee work with insurance companies whose policies he or she disagrees with?

Does an Adventist work at a bank where corporations have accounts that produce products he or she disagrees with (bombers and bombs, for example)?

Can an Adventist own Wal-Mart stock when he or she disagrees with their gun sales policies?

How deep do we want to take these conscience-offended issues in our society?