Seventh-day Adventist Church Responds to Equality Act

(Steve Mga) #137

David –
I believe the COMPLEX ISSUES for Your relationships to your GLT
relatives is THIS–
Inviting them to become Jesus Followers–God Lovers and then
encourage them to later become baptized and members of the
SDA church you attend.

THIS is the Complex Issues I have with GLT friends. Inviting them
to join my local SDA church.
Thank God for my Sunday church congregation!!

(David) #138

I appreciate the examples you provide where a particular occupation or choice may seem to be a compromise of sorts with different people depending on their conscience/beliefs. In those cases I think it is up to the individual to move on and find an occupation or choice he/she can live with instead of forcing an institution or employer to bend to his way of thinking. That’s not how America works (or any free society for that matter).

I consider the owner of Arlene’s flowers to be an artist and like any artist (painter, sculptor, musician), it is difficult to separate the artistic work from your identity and emotions. I think society would have been better served if the two gay men would have taken the high road and tried to better understand the owner of Arlene’s instead taking her rejection as a personal slight (I know it isn’t easy but that’s what makes one a better man).
Everyone’s conscience is different, as Paul so eloquently pointed out, and we need to keep that in mind when dealing with our fellow man or woman.
@harrpa, @timteichman

(Steve Mga) #139

Perhaps the Bakery and the Florist were “set-ups” and these 2 gay couples
were Working for An Organization that wanted to get their names in the
National News.
So perhaps they were encouraged to ask these businesses to CATER their
weddings with their wedding cake and wedding flowers.
We do know that there were other bakeries who would have had no problem
with catering the wedding of these 2 guys.
I am sure they could have purchased the flowers and paid someone to arrange
them at their wedding. BUT NO!!
They HAD to get their names on national news.

(JRStovall) #140

Ahhhh…so if one is an artist, it is okay to discriminate even when your ‘art’ is for everyday consumption or what ever. Maybe the answer for all of those that don’t like the gay lifestyle is to becomes some type of ‘artist’. Laying bricks in a pattern, buliding a house in your own way, designing cars artistically, styling hair, etc, etc, etc. Solves the issue, now we just need a law for making ‘christians’ = ‘artist’, so they can discriminate!!

(Tim Teichman) #141

I don’t see any such complexity. The idea that because you hold certain beliefs you cannot sell the products your business sells to people of believe differently is abjectly absurd. It will never not be absurd.

(David) #142

I’m not a denominational guy, Steve. I encourage people to be free thinkers. Denominations always seem to impede the ability to think freely IMO. They’re like straight jackets. I find more to agree with in the SDA church than any other but there’s enough to disagree with that I can’t justify sending anyone their way. That’s just the way it is.


(Steve Mga) #143

I attend synagogue on Friday evenings with my Jewish friend [I take him 5 blocks from his apartment in his wheelchair]. I noticed this little piece in
our “book of common prayer”. [This our 6th year of friendship, and worship
together on Friday evenings.]
Prayer does not depend on “religion” in an institutional sense, nor on
dogma, or creed, but rather on true heartfelt feelings that arise when a
person recognizes that one’s surroundings and one’s friends are not
there solely for one’s own happiness, but instead, these relationships
give rise to an obligation whose Source is Life itself."
— Eliezer Schwied in Siddur Sim Shalom, pg 39a.
Shabbat Shalom.

(Steve Mga) #144

David –
I’ve attempted to bring several to my services on Sabbath.
But it just wasn’t a “good fit” for them.
So I had to resort to take them either to St Francis or to
Ingleside Baptist on Sundays. Ingleside Pastor does
Bible Studies as his 30 minute sermon, after 30 minutes
of singing prior.
He has study guides in the bulletin with fill in the blanks for
the congregation to fill in as he presents his topics each week.
I love the way he has church organized. Not jus “lecture” but
actual “Bible Class”. They have 4000 members that attend
various services and programs on Sunday. Lots of child and
teen members.
He celebrated his 26th year as the pastor this year.

(David) #145

That says it all Jaray. You don’t even belong at the table!

(David) #146

I guess you have to walk in another man’s moccasins Tim ( to quote a Native American saying).

(Steve Mga) #147

David, Tim–
One can SELL to everyone. BUT one does NOT have to promote a
customer’s LifeStyle by participating in their “wedding ceremony”.
That is the ISSUE with the baker and the florist.
Sell the wedding cake, and sell the flowers, but have someone else
take the cake to the church and someone else arrange the flowers there.

(JRStovall) #148

Well, If I knew what table you were talking about, perhaps I could respond. :thinking:

(George Tichy) #149

The important thing is to find a congregation that is accepting, kind, focused on the Gospel, and where one feels good and can learn. The denomination has no role in this choice.

Unfortunately Adventists teach that the denomination is an extremely important factor. But denominationalism is a very dangerous thing, actually a powerful control tool that is used to manipulate the crowds.

(Tim Teichman) #150

The issue is they wouldn’t deliver the items? I didn’t pick up on that in any of the new stories.

I think this a difficult concept to defend. Delivering is participating? I don’t see it. Amazon isn’t participating in my use of the items I buy from them by delivering them to me. The appliance delivery company that installed my washer and dryer didn’t participate in doing our laundry. And if we had a party and had flowers and cake delivered, those suppliers would not participate in our party. It’s none of their business.

When I was married I had a florist, a caterer, a photographer, and the women had their hair done at a local salon. We never thought that these people participated in our wedding. They were there, they were our paid contractors, paid to perform the services we contracted with them to perform. They didn’t have an opinion about the validity of our wedding - or, at least, none was offered or welcome. That would be inappropriate.

Our guests were invited to the wedding to participate in it.

(Tim Teichman) #151

I don’t really think so. But what would I experience that would provide me with a more subtle understanding of why I’d ever want to have a moral opinion about how the products I create and sell are used?

I create and sell software. I expect that some criminals have purchased it from me and used it to commit fraud. That’s not my problem. I just make the software. I’ll even customize it for you, and I won’t have any sort of moral opinion about it. Or your lifestyle. Or your religion.

(George Tichy) #152

Can you create a software that detects the presence of LGTarians on Spectrum?.. LOL

(reliquum) #153

Already created.

(George Tichy) #154

After I posted that I actually asked myself, “Do we really need one? Well, yes, to be used after I die”… :roll_eyes: :innocent:

Just, “bring them on” … :sunglasses:

(David) #155

You probably will disagree with me Tim but that’s okay. I see the florist’s role in a wedding (see the link) as a very personal one. Not every wedding is the same (some more elaborate than others). I was married by a justice of the peace in my parent’s backyard. I never went to a florist.

Maybe the two gay men wanted a very elaborate wedding that required the florist to be more involved than what she felt comfortable with. The record shows she sold flowers to them for years prior to the standoff. There’s a lot we don’t know about the case. It’s not as simple as making a purchase online or purchasing a dryer from the appliance store and having it delivered.

Blanket judgements will always get us into trouble. We need to learn how to make sound judgements that take everyone’s concerns into account.

The ACLU is on the offence against the first amendment rights of American citizens. Be careful what you wish for. You might just be opening Pandora’s box!

@timteichman, @niteguy2

(JRStovall) #156

There was a time when people felt ‘uncomfortable’ selling homes, food, etc to people of different races, still happening in some places, would that be okay to discriminate if for ‘religious’ reasons in your mind?