Seventh-day Adventist Church Responds to Equality Act


(Harry Elliott) #197

So many of our familiar proof texts ignore the context. If the issue is whether the sabbath was made for both sexes or just for man, using Jesus’ statement as a “gotcha” leads away from truth. The subject was not who the sabbaths were made for, but whether man was outranked by them.


(reliquum) #198

Context is confounding, subtle, thought inducing.

Gets in the way of the desired utility of all the KJV “transliteralated”
“thus sayeths”.Might even mean we have it wrong, and need to admit that, despite our well polished brass hubris…


(David) #199

Christ: “ The Sabbath was made for man "

Yes that is exactly my point. I believe the message of Christ is that the Gentiles would be included and that that inclusion involves the blessing of the sabbath.

John 10:16: And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd.

Christ quoted from Isaiah 56, "It is written, “My house shall be called the house of prayer for all people”.

Isaiah 56: My salvation is about to come…To the eunuchs who keep My Sabbaths,….I will give them an everlasting name…That shall not be cut off…“Also the sons of the foreigner who join themselves to the Lord,…Everyone who keeps from defiling the Sabbath, and holds fast My covenant—Even them I will bring to My holy mountain, and make them joyful in My house of prayer…For My house shall be called a house of prayer for all nations." The Lord God, who gathers the outcasts of Israel, says, “Yet I will gather to him others besides those who are gathered to him.

I agree with your interpretation of the sabbath Tim. I believe what you say is exactly what Christ was meaning to say. What Christ was promoting IMO is that the sabbath should be kept in the spirit of the law and not the letter (the letter is dead and blind). It’s true that the Pharisees accused Him of breaking the sabbath but they also accused Him of having a devil. Clearly, if Christ had broken the sabbath He could not have been our sinless redeemer.

@timteichman


(Tim Teichman) #200

Yes, as Paul pointed out, keeping any of the law is a dead end and does not lead to salvation.


(David) #201

I see your point Harry, as well as Tim’s and Timo’s (TNT!) :wink:

I think both points can be made from Christ’s statement:

  1. yes man outranks the sabbath.

  2. and the sabbath was made for man (including woman i.e., mankind)

I don’t think the two have to be mutually exclusive.
@Harry_Elliott


#202

Who knows why God stopped on the seventh day??

Seventh%20Day


(Patrick Travis) #203

Maybe there will be anthropogenic global warming…then what?! Oh, I guess I will have to wait and see. :frowning:


(Harry Elliott) #204

Maybe not.

At that time Jesus went on the sabbath day through the corn; and his disciples were an hungred, and began to pluck the ears of corn, and to eat.
But when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto him, Behold, thy disciples do that which is not lawful to do upon the sabbath day.
But he said unto them, Have ye not read what David did, when he was an hungred, and they that were with him;
How he entered into the house of God, and did eat the shewbread, which was not lawful for him to eat, neither for them which were with him, but only for the priests?
Or have ye not read in the law, how that on the sabbath days the priests in the temple profane the sabbath, and are blameless?
(Mt 12:1-4)

In Jesus’ analogy, He relates the current issue with a situation in which the principals were indeed guilty of breaking the law, and yet are “blameless”.

In another conversation, He said, “Moses said. but I say…” The only words that they had of Moses were in the Law/Torah. I think it’s clear that Jesus distanced Himself somewhat from the Law as our example. I haven’t the slightest doubt which side of the WO issue He would take.


(Steve Mga) #205

The Gospel writers make a comment on WHY Jesus, the Rabbi, was so popular
with the people.
“He spoke as one who had Authority.”
This was apparently in contrast to the major group of Pharisees and other
expounders of the Torah.
There was a smaller, secondary group of Pharisees who followed the
teachings of Hillel, of whom Nicodemus, Joseph, Gamaliel were followers
of, but we don’t hear from them in the gospels.


(Maria V. Blair) #206

Wow…"Unfortunately, in attempting to provide protection for some, the Equality Act unnecessarily infringes upon the rights of others.

The way forward means addressing the concerns of both the LGBT and religious communities. We believe there is a better approach, one that builds upon the civil rights protections offered in the Equality Act by also reaffirming the First Amendment religious freedom rights of people of faith".

So in other words let’s keep them separate but equals? How exactly is that going to be accomplished? How is a church going to handle that? Will they be saying “all those LGBT please stand up. Your rights are protected elsewhere but this congregation is protected by their religious convictions that are not the same as yours”…

I left the SDA church over 3 years ago and now more than ever I know I made the right decision. I just wonder why it took me so long to understand that I was part of a mentality who worship an intolerant, hateful, vengeful and unforgiving God. A God who does not allow you to be yourself, who actually does not love the sinner and who wants perfection and nothing else. The truth is the SDA church will never accept the LGBT community and this statement is just another way of affirming that creed. But like Tom said in another post here in this forum “I know my Savior lives”. I had to get out of that pervasive and sick environment to finally find the God of love.


(David) #209

Clearly, if Christ had broken the sabbath He could not have been our sinless redeemer.

"At that time Jesus went on the sabbath day through the corn; and his disciples were an hungred, and began to pluck the ears of corn, and to eat.
But when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto him, Behold, thy disciples do that which is not lawful to do upon the sabbath day.
But he said unto them, Have ye not read what David did, when he was an hungred, and they that were with him;
How he entered into the house of God, and did eat the shewbread, which was not lawful for him to eat, neither for them which were with him, but only for the priests?
Or have ye not read in the law, how that on the sabbath days the priests in the temple profane the sabbath, and are blameless?
(Mt 12:1-5)

Harry, for such a short post your points are loaded! I had to let it sink in and marinate for a bit before I answered. I read the Matthew text over and felt that 12:6-8 shed some additional light on the subject.

"6 Yet I say to you that in this place **there is One greater than the temple.**7 But if you had known what this means, ‘I desire mercy and not sacrifice,’ you would not have condemned the guiltless. 8 For the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath.”

Jesus seems to make the point that even though something was not normally allowed, there was always room for exception. And even though His disciples picked corn on the sabbath day in apparent violation, Jesus says they were guiltless (they didn’t sin).

The message I get from the text (and correct me if I’m wrong) is that mercy and necessity trump the law. The priests by necessity perform a service (occupation) and just because the sabbath day arrives doesn’t mean they suspend their duties. This is how I understand Christ’s reply that, “on the sabbath days the priests in the temple profane the sabbath, and are blameless.”

I think in general the concept of the spirit of the law vs. the letter of the law is at play. Maybe His claim that He was greater than the temple and thus was Lord even of the sabbath was reference to His priestly service on the Sabbath day (just a theory). The Pharisees were judging by the letter of the law and by appearances. They were guilty of unrighteousness judgement as Jesus described in John 7:23-25:

23 If a man receives circumcision on the Sabbath, so that the law of Moses should not be broken, are you angry with Me because I made a man completely well on the Sabbath? 24 Do not judge according to appearance, but judge with righteous judgment.”

Circumcision (8th day) was a necessity, hence sometimes it had to be performed on the sabbath day. I believe this concept of righteous judgement (not judging by appearances) is what Paul was alluding to in Colossians 2:16. There are those who will disagree with that (but that’s my story and I’m sticking to it).

I actually see Christ affirming the law and again He places the emphasis on the spirit of the law versus the letter and appearance (the physical act). It was the issues of the heart that Christ was addressing IMO.

Matt. 5:27-28 “You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’ 28 But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

@Harry_Elliott


(Harry Elliott) #210

I did a search on “spirit of the law” and got zero hits.


(Steve Mga) #211

Picking the ripe tops of the grain, rubbing it between one’s hands till the husk
falls off.
That is considered “harvesting” and “threshing” of the grain. Hence – work.
If one has a lit candle and blows it out instead of letting it burn all the way
down and go out on its own – When one blows on the candle wick and it
goes out , one is MAKING CHARCOAL. Which is – work.
So one does NOT blow candles out during the Sabbath hours. But allow them
to burn down and out.


(David) #212

He places the emphasis on the spirit of the law

That’s okay Harry.

I did a search on the trinity and you know what? Got zero hits.

I did a search on Easter and got zero hits.

Sometimes we just need to connect the dots. I call it rightly dividing the word of truth (2 Tim. 2:15).

Rom. 7:14: For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin.

The law is spiritual, hence there is a spirit of the law as opposed to the letter.

Rom. 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

To be spiritually minded is to think and judge in terms of the spirit of the law.

John 4:23: But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him.

John 6:63: It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.

@Harry_Elliott


(Steve Mga) #213

Trinity –
1 John 5:7,8 describe the TRINITY. Father, Word, Holy Spirit, “and these
three are one.”
The OTHER Trinity – Spirit, Water, Blood “and these three are one.”

We REALLY NEED for 1 John to come right after the Gospel of John as
they BOTH complement one another. And SPEAK to one another.


(David) #214

Like I said Steve, I typed in trinity and came up with zero hits! Go figure!!!

@niteguy2


(Tim Teichman) #215

That’s because the early church made it up. It’s not in the bible.


(Elmer Cupino) #216

The trinity and the Investigative judgement share common foundations. Both can be inferred from the bible ONLY with mental creativity and gymnastics.


(Steve Mga) #217

The word “TRINITY” is an extra-Biblical word based on DESCRIPTIONS
given in the Bible.
Like the DESCRIPTION in 1John 5:7. “and these three are one”. Refering
back to the Torah where it announces that “God is One”.
John amplifies that Father, Word, Holy Spirit are God, and “God is One.”


(Harry Elliott) #218

Matt, we don’t keep all of the commandments, or even choose to, do we? Jews count 612 commandments in the Law (Torah). Have you ever even read them all? (I haven’t.)

Are we really sabbath-keepers if we keep the seventh-day sabbath (Ex 20:8-11) but not the eighth-day sabbath, for example? ( Lev 23:39) Or do we just not think about it?