Seventh-day Adventist Church Responds to Equality Act


(David) #219

Excellent point Harry. I think about it! The book of Zechariah has something to say about it too. I realize EGW never mentioned it but hey.

Behold, the day of the Lord is coming,
And your spoil will be divided in your midst.
For I will gather all the nations to battle against Jerusalem; And it shall come to pass that everyone who is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Tabernacles. And it shall be that whichever of the families of the earth do not come up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, on them there will be no rain. If the family of Egypt will not come up and enter in, they shall have no rain; they shall receive the plague with which the Lord strikes the nations who do not come up to keep the Feast of Tabernacles. (Zechariah.14:1-2, 16-18)

The leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. (Rev.22:2)


(Jack Heisler) #220

Judge not least you be judged !
President Trump has been worngly accused by the Main stream media & his political oppanants God Bless President Trump !


(David) #221

I did a search on the trinity and you know what? Got zero hits.

:man_cartwheeling::woman_cartwheeling::woman_cartwheeling::woman_cartwheeling::woman_cartwheeling::man_cartwheeling::man_cartwheeling:

1844 was based on a simple arithmetic error.

  • an evening and morning make one day.

And the evening and the morning were the first day. (Genesis 1:5)

And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred evenings and mornings; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed. …And the vision of the evenings and mornings which hath been told is true: but shut thou up the vision; for it belongeth to many days to come. (Dan. 8:14,26)

  • 2300/2 =1150, simple math

I figured it out a couple years ago but if I told ya I’d have to kill ya :crazy_face:.

@elmer_cupino


(George Tichy) #222

What happened to “character” nowadays? Not important anymore?


(Michael Wortman) #223

Perhaps this is supportive of the argument, in a small way, that sola scriptura is not an adequate principle to follow since it doesn’t seem to recognize the importance of reasoning in the development of a theology. The Methodists, and the Anglicans,too, I think, argue in favor of “prima scriptura,” They recognize the Bible as a primary source, but also value reasoning and tradition as necessary extra-Biblical ingredients.


(Harry Elliott) #224

These words are a description of only the LAST PART of the first day, not of the whole day.

The first part was the light part: God said let there be light, and there was light…And God called the light day.

In the Hebrew, ereb and boquer are better translated sundown and sunup, the two instants that separate the twelve-hour days from each other. In the Hebrew, boquer/sunup, sunrise, dawn is the last “time word” each day!

Until the inter-testament period, the Jews began all days at dawn except the Day of Atonement Sabbath/fast-day which began twelve hours early. (After I discovered this, I found that some Jews knew about it, too. But the Jews don’t want to face correcting the beginning of the Sabbaths back to Saturday dawn than we do! Sam Bacchiocchi told me years ago that he discovered this before I did.)

Oh well. I have every confidence that the Catholics and the Jews and We Seventh-Day Adventists will never change back to the Bible on this.


(Tim Teichman) #225

IMO it was a complete error to even try. Jesus stated we’re not to try to predict the second coming - that no one except the Father knows. And yet we did it anyway - in direct defiance of Jesus teaching. So why were we surprised when we were wrong?


(Steve Mga) #226

In my contact with Jewish friends at Friday evening services the past 6 years
[the service center is about 5 minutes from my house, and I met my Jewish
friend at the Episcopal church one Sunday] they see the Message of Genesis
1 and 2 and much of Exodus and the Torah being about REST.
Day 1 began with God resting before creating, same with 2,3,4,5,6 and then
commanded REST every 7 days. A day set aside to give Him thanks and praise
for all the good things that happen on days 1,2,3,4,5,and 6.
REST before work is how they view the mind of God on this issue.
REST being the focus on heading to the Promised Land.
But they rebelled, and refused the REST and so had to wander for another
38 years until that generation [except Caleb and Joshua] died and were
buried somewhere in the wilderness.


(David) #227

1844 was based on a simple arithmetic error.

Trying to understand the 2300 evening mornings prophecy isn’t about trying to predict the second coming. What the prophecy is about IMO is how long the Daniel 8 little horn tramples the heavenly temple. The prophecy looked forward to the time when the heavenly order would be made right - justified. The investigative judgement idea did nothing but muddy up the water.

The final proof and acceptance of the copernican view of heaven is what it was all about. I think it’s hard for us to appreciate how revolutionary the idea was that the earth revolved and went around the sun. We take a lot for granted.

@timteichman


(David) #228

And the evening and the morning were the first day. (Genesis 1:5)

Interesting observation Harry! I hadn’t thought of that. Does that mean you think my calculation is correct: 2300/2=1150?

Interesting discovery Harry. Thanks for sharing. I have always just assumed the day began at sundown.

A few of the reasons are as follows:

  1. Gospels record that at evening the sabbath drew on (was just beginning).

  2. The first day of the month was determined by the visible new moon which could be seen only at sundown. Thus the new moon at sundown began the first day of the month.

  3. It doesn’t seem right that darkness should follow light. Light should always overcome darkness.

@Harry_Elliott


(Harry Elliott) #229

How about: " In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre." (Matthew 28:1)

The only place that the Bible commands/authorizes a sabbath to begin at sundown is:

It shall be unto you a sabbath of rest, and ye shall afflict your souls: in the ninth day of the month at even, from even unto even, shall ye celebrate your sabbath. (Lev 23:32)

This is clearly an exception. “Sabbath”, not “sabbaths”. None of the other sabbaths listed have this qualification.

Furthermore, if the days began at sundown when this commandment was given, the Day of Atonement/sabbath/fast would have had to be on the ninth day of the seventh month, instead of the tenth

It wasn’t.

_ Also on the tenth day of this seventh month there shall be a day of atonement: it shall be an holy convocation unto you; and ye shall afflict your souls, and offer an offering made by fire unto the LORD. And ye shall do no work in that same day: for it is a day of atonement, to make an atonement for you before the LORD your God. ( Lev 23:27, 28)_

.Bottom line: We squawk at the Catholics for their Biblically unauthorized sabbath-keeping on Sunday while we keep sabbath on Biblically unauthorized Friday. Go figure.


(Cfowler) #230

Harry, do you think that Israel followed the lunar calendar for determining the beginning of the month and counting from there to the Sabbath?


(Patrick Travis) #231

Howdy, just chiming in uninvited, I believe in the creator and creation and the necessity of a known day of worship for fellowship. The rest of this is useless chatter and why the NT church isn’t obligated over never ending disputes over days, months, years, foods etc. :slight_smile:


(David) #232

You’re always invited Pat and your opinions are always appreciated! :slightly_smiling_face:

Just don’t forget the wine Pat!

@1QOL


(Harry Elliott) #233

Yes.

Harry_Elliott

1

16m

How about: " In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre." (Matthew 28:1)

The only place that the Bible commands/authorizes a sabbath to begin at sundown is:

It shall be unto you a sabbath of rest, and ye shall afflict your souls: in the ninth day of the month at even, from even unto even, shall ye celebrate your sabbath. (Lev 23:32)

This is clearly an exception. “Sabbath”, not “sabbaths”. None of the other sabbaths listed have this qualification.

Furthermore, if the days began at sundown when this commandment was given, the Day of Atonement/sabbath/fast would have had to be on the ninth day of the seventh month, instead of the tenth

It wasn’t.

_ Also on the tenth day of this seventh month there shall be a day of atonement : it shall be an holy convocation unto you; and ye shall afflict your souls , and offer an offering made by fire unto the LORD. And ye shall do no work in that same day: for it is a day of atonement , to make an atonement for you before the LORD your God. ( Lev 23:27, 28)_

Galiman:

  1. It doesn’t seem right that darkness should follow light. Light should always overcome darkness.

Not a problem. When God said “Let there be light”, that light overcame the primordial darkness. Then God inserted the “daily darkness”, He called “night” to separate the light He made.

@Harry_Elliott

.Bottom line: We squawk at the Catholics for their Biblically unauthorized sabbath-keeping on Sunday while we keep sabbath on Biblically unauthorized Friday. Go figure.

Reply


(Harry Elliott) #234

Why not? When they observed a new moon, the next day was always a sabbath anyway. Their calendar didn’t have weeks or weekdays, so the term, “seventh day of the week” would have been meaningless to them. The commandment makes perfect sense as, “Never work yourselves or your slaves more than six days in a row. Whenever you work six days straight, you must take the seventh day off as a sabbath in My name”.

(The translation “first day of the week” in Matt 28:1 is flat-out wrong. A far more justifiable rendering is TheComplete Jewish Bible’s “…as the next day was dawning”.)


(David) #235

Thanks for the peer review Harry but that was too funny! Anyone with a calculator could tell me that. Let me re-phrase the question.

Does that mean you think the 2300 evening mornings is the equivalent of 1150 days?

No problem. All it’s saying (IMO) is the Sabbath had passed and it was now the first day of the week and beginning to dawn.

Mark 16:1-2 helps clarify.

Now when the Sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James, and Salome bought spices, that they might come and anoint Him. Very early in the morning, on the first day of the week, they came to the tomb when the sun had risen.

I think what is equally clear is that the sabbath was said to draw near (in the late afternoon/evening) in Luke 23:54. John says the same thing (John 19:31).

That day was the Preparation and the Sabbath drew near.

I see the reading of it differently. It says to me that the 10th day of the 7th month is to be kept as a sabbath and like any other sabbath it is to be observed from evening to evening.

There were other lunar days that were considered sabbaths too as I know you are aware: 1st and 7th day of unleavened bread, 1st and 8th day of feast of tabernacles.

You completely lost me here.

@Harry_Elliott


(Cfowler) #236

I agree…the count of days for the new month was calculated by the sighting of the new moon. Therefore, the Sabbath that is touted as the true day of rest, isn’t. :face_with_raised_eyebrow:


(reliquum) #237

Which suggests that it isn’t important that we have a chronological and unbroken string of sevens denoting our day of rest. Not at all suggesting that rest is unimportant-but am positing that a kairos god did not arbitrarily pick one day, and then expect a bunch of cavemen to count that specific day of sevens from illiterate antiquity to restored future perpetuity.

There are many examples of problems trying to recount specific days through history of unknown numbers of days, various calendars and metrics, not to mention if it were vitally important, why was Adam was given no explicit edict to mark each day in stone, and to teach his sons to faithfully continue that exact ritual everyday till eternity?

For us to believe we can go back through time in exact 168 hour increments, right back to the first weekend in Eden, in order to support our peculiar sabbath suggests a leap in logic. I can understand why we try do so-but I suspect that any arbitrary day of worship is equally erring-neither better than or worse. To believe otherwise imposes an arbitrary characteristic on god which imho is untenable

I sense that most of our theological problems stem from the hubris with which we declare we “exclusively know TRUTH” based on our literal readings…


(George Tichy) #238

I would say, again, the fact that our teachings are not based on the principle of Sola Scriptura. Adventists have two sources of truth and doctrine,The Bible and t he SOP. The formed is always validated by the latter. Maybe not on paper, but certainly in practice.

Of course this church is always immersed in confusionand anti-biblical doctrine. How could this mess and up differently?