Should the Church in North America be Independent from the General Conference?

(Cfowler) #182

I don’t follow EGW, but I’ve come to understand that “perfect” in our translations, is more akin to mature or complete. I think that is what we are growing towards, not sinlessness (maybe less sin? :grinning:). Not to say that God is not sinless, of course He is. But, He is also complete and mature and…

So, that’s how I’ve come to understand this when I see the word perfect, when referring to human beings.

Then, I found this commentary on Matthew 5:48, which I thought was very helpful and well done. WDYT?

(Patrick Travis) #183

You’re reading some good “Reformed Theology.” :slight_smile:

(Darrel Lindensmith) #184

I shake my head when people In The church say, “I don’t know where these people get this perfect stuff.”

"Those only who through faith in Christ obey all of God's commandments will reach the condition of sinlessness in which Adam lived before his transgression." 
"Everyone who surrenders fully to God is given the privilege of living without sin." 
"We need not retain one sinful propensity." 
"Christ died to make it possible for you to cease to sin." 
"To be redeemed means to cease from sin." 

“…Those who are living on the earth when the intercession of Christ shall cease in the sanctuary above are to stand in the sight of a holy God without a mediator. Their robes must be spotless, their characters must be purified from sin by the blood of sprinkling. Through the grace of God and their own diligent effort they must be conquerors in the battle with evil…” Ellen White, SDA Commentary, Vol. VI, p. 1118. Review and Herald, Sept. 27, 1906. SDA Commentary, Vol. V, p.1128; ibid, Vol 7, p. 943. Review and Herald, Aug. 28, 1894. Review and Herald, Sept. 25, 1900. The Great Controversy, p. 425

(jeremy) #185

from what i’ve seen, “bob” is actually quite bright (wasn’t he banned once before)…he may really be somebody like david read, clifford goldstein, or even TW, for all we know…obviously he’s at least relatively well-known, or he wouldn’t be hiding behind a pseudonym…i think this makes he’s pretended ignorance of LGT all the more doubtful…


My suggestion is to consider what she means by perfect and also to read all of her comments you can find in regards to the topic. One quote as you noted is often used without due consideration to the whole. Perfection in essence is complete or maturity of character. How do we show Christ-likeness. How do we love others.
I believe biblical perfection is a far cry from how the LGT people often use it. I believe that her comment is a simple statement that when Jesus returns it is a simple statement that His people will be found loving others.

(jeremy) #187

go ahead, darrell, say we’re better than the rest…you can do it if you try…after-all, why is the whole world emigrating to europe and n. america…is anybody emigrating to sudan, or bangladesh…

(Cfowler) #188

Thanks for your reply.

Indeed. If not ordaining women, and open Lesbians and Gays, is a deal breaker for attending that church, that’s fine. Then, as you said, we are able to find the church that we are in agreement with, on the issues that most follows how the Spirit is leading us. I love your comment, “remaining charitable while differing with others view.” So, true!

When there are so many issues that a church is divided on, it’s like cats in a bag, that can’t get out. Lots of fighting and very loud meowing! :wink:


Darrel, the use of these statements are like the joke about Microsoft tech support.

There was once a man who was passenger in a helicopter flying through the thick fog of Seattle Washington. The pilot, desperate to find his bearings, can’t see a thing until he spies an small clear spot next to a building. The pilot flies up and shouts to the person inside asking “where are we?” The man in the building answers “your in a helicopter!”. Upon hearing this the pilot flies through the blinding fog and maneuvers for a perfect landing. Astonished the man asks the pilot “how did you know what to do?” The pilot said “it’s simple, I knew by his answer that we were next to the microsoft tech support building from that I knew how to get here safely”. Incredulous the man asked “but how did you know it was the microsoft tech support building?”. Laughing the pilot said “I knew that because his answer was completely accurate but totally useless”.

You say you “shake your head” however while you recite a quotation your answer like microsoft tech support answer your statement is completely useless. You have said nothing nobody hasn’t heard a thousand times before. I keep asking commentators like yourself (I have asked myself this alot as well) who talk about this if they can explain the ‘secret sauce’ or how this can be reconciled with promises of God to forgive and cleanse sin and how this works in world where we stand without a mediator without becoming a paradox.

Since the time of the early Christian church many have tried to explain the context, what it means, rules to follow to attain this, etc. They all failed as far as I know and to my knowledge even EGW never made the claim to have attained this level in her relationship with God. LGT’s and others in the Adventist church will talk about it claim that you must attain it but have no really practical suggestion as to how you get from where you are now to this level.but no one including yourself can explain what this means.

So aside from a recitation what is it that has enable you to attain this level of relationship with God? Seriously I and others would like to know in simple actionable language how you have put this into practice and what make this possible for you.

(George Tichy) #190

I thought that too, that he became “too bright” once before, until he was banned. Well, if it happens again, we will soon have another millennial joining the collection…

He is certainly a knowledgeable individual, highly trained to be evasive but also assertive. Maybe trained by the KGC?

One positive though: he appears to still have some conscience left, since he WILL NOT answer my question with a lie. He will not deny that he is a LGTarian, this why he does not answer the question. Which confirm that he actually is one. KP maybe??? Double identity, different IP??? That would be a “perfect” move… :wink:

(Kim Green) #191

Oh…my bad! I mean “Occultic Medical Hypnosis” book! :wink:

(George Tichy) #192

I would think of emigrating to Saudi Arabia!
IF I were considering suicide by dismemberment… :open_mouth:

(jeremy) #193

he doesn’t write or think like kevin…i’d be shocked if it were Kevin…

(Darrel Lindensmith) #194

I myself reject perfection as related to salvation.
Perfection is what we should strive for BECAUSE we ARE saved by GRACE.

I think Ellen White was wrong and confused or her language was certainly confused on the subject

Regarding Salvation our only Perfection is “in Christ.” We will never be actually perfected until Glorification according to scripture. Col. 3:1-4

(George Tichy) #195

Well, that characterization (occultic) was made by @bob, so far a very occult individual here. Who is he???

Could he be the same guy who made a very similar reference to hypnosis on Fulcrum7 a couple of weeks ago, last name Pickle I guess? I was just inadvertently ( :roll_eyes: ) lurking in that pathetic site when I saw a comment on hypnosis, so I obviously contributed with my opinion. And, oh man, that triggered a reaction from that Pickle guy with similar comments as Bob’s here.Too similar not to be suspicious of the similarity… :wink:

Actually, if I were de facto so much interested, and had the time for such futilities, I would check if the site that guy referred me to is the same Bob referred you to. I think it’s the same site, because I went there at the time and found it obscure and… occultic!!! Hmmmmm…let me try a fatal-Y/N-Tichy-style question…:

Hey BOB, @Bob

Are you the same guy who exchanged posts on hypnosis with me on Fulcrum7 a few days ago, Pickle I guess?
____ YES … … ____ NO


Well, just in case, I did a little research. EUREKA!!! Look what I found on Fulcrum7!!! Just click on the link and it will take you strait to the “occultic treasure!” (Then scroll UP, to get the thread from the beginning)

Coincidentally, I like pickles. I am serious, I eat 4 slices of them every morning in a sandwich. Those are just salty. Some others may become really sour at times… :wink:

So, Kim, can I now apply to be part of the KGS team (KGSpectrum) as an honorary title for excellence in discovering “occultic mysteries???”

(George Tichy) #196

No, not Kevin. Check my post above, 194. Occultic mystery revealed!!!

(jeremy) #197

i think you’re on to something, george…bob could very well be bob pickles…it all fits…he may be the bob pickles behind pickles publishing, which sells everything from books on health to videos on YEC…it even sells music CD’s…

maybe he is too busy to be up on LGT, although one would think he’d come across it in the books he sells…

but keep in mind that david read has always been ambivalent on LGT…he always ends up saying that he hasn’t looked into it for himself…

all in all, though, i think bob is bob pickles…you should ask him directly, and see what he says…


Of course I have no proof that R.C. Sproul spanked his wife, and I can’t presently locate the article where the person said he was present in a group at the Sproul’s house when that allegedly, shockingly, happened.

Arguing inductively, I’m in a hole on that one, I admit. What I said amounts to no more than an assertion.

Even though it would be odd for someone to make up a story so particular as that, it’s certainly possible that it was made up, or distorted in some way, for opaque motives.

You’re on more solid ground saying Sproul didn’t spank his wife, but neither of us can prove it either way.

I could argue inductively to more effect if I presented evidence that certain leaders, such as Piper and Sproul have taught principles that are detrimental to women’s well-being.


With apologies for being so boringly pedantic, I want to take this opportunity to show that my inductive argument was not only invalid but also unpersuasive.

Perhaps I will write more of Piper, et. al., later and present my points in a more persuasive, hopefully cogent way, realizing that, in such matters (most religious talk), nailing down my premises unequivocally is not possible.

Point conceded.

Thanks for bearing with me, Pat. :slight_smile:

(Patrick Travis) #199

Well, I once spoke to Sproul’s wife to see if I could get him to speak at a church. His health was failing and he had quit speaking at smaller events. She was very nice and cordial. There is always the possibility by deduction and induction that she was offended and that is why RC is no longer with us. :slight_smile: Not an uncommon thing in HK. :slight_smile:
As to Piper we must all not assume all “women” or “men” hold our particular views. All women are not offended by “headship” and some I have spoken to agree with it. What they do not agree to is an overbearing husband wanting to Lord over them in all aspects of life. Piper is a very modest fellow who has done a lot of good, in my judgment, socially and “in general” theology.


Okay, now I’m confused… :confused:


As to Piper, I do not assume all women or men hold my views.

Of course some, indeed many, women agree with Headship.

I agreed with headship for years, as did the women in the Headship church I attended concurrently with the SDA church.

We agreed with Headship, but didn’t “agree” with an overbearing attitude on the part of our husbands.

Some women even give their consent to being spanked. They agree with “Christian Domestic Discipline.”

Regarding Piper, I may write more later.