Should the Church in North America be Independent from the General Conference?


Yeah, that’s pretty messed up.


Bob. No spinning. No pejorative labels. Truth. Fact.

Reckless disregard for accuracy? Read for yourself, Bob:

A Short History of the Headship Doctrine in the Seventh-day Adventist Church

Please, Bob, discuss with objectivity, not slander (spinning, disregard for accuracy). Your allegations are untrue.

Read the truth and remove the scales from your eyes. Be honest.


“Pretty messed up” could be your New Normal, regardless of how people slice and dice the eternally slippery Trinity.

(George Tichy) #124

One of the biggest problems with this LGT heresy is that it blatantly discounts, diminishes the meaning of Jesus’ words, “It’s Finished.” According to them, it was “not actually totally finished.” Thus they tell people that what Christ did was left a little bit incomplete…


Such trickle down applications of this concept is repugnant at best and an abomination at worst. Such notions have no place is the Christian life for sure. What you experienced is so terrible words fail me to express my horror, grief, and shock.

(George Tichy) #126

Well Harrpa, talking of objectivity, I think it’s time to asb @bob a simple question,

Hi Bob, can you please let us know where you stand? A simple question:

Do you support the LGT theory ( = the perfectionism heresy? In other words, are you a LGTarian?
____ YES … … ____ NO


Bob, interesting that you mentioned our Adventist pioneers.

Here’s what Uriah Smith, James White, and others wrote in the Adventist Review about the right of the Marys to Preach. If you think the pioneers were opposed to women receiving the gift of the Holy Spirit to preach and minister, you’d better read this:



To be honest I never heard of this…:frowning:


You ain’t seen nuthin’ yet, I fear.

Yours, with hair on fire

Cassandra Perelandra


I’m sorry to sully a pure mind…

(Kim Green) #131

"those who promote the occultic practice of hypnosis are attacking the church from within."

Just curious…why is hypnosis “occultic”? Please don’t use a quote from EGW.

(Kim Green) #132

Thank-you…I am sure that there are others who can clearly remember the same conversation.

(Kim Green) #133

"Since an entire generation, according to the Perfection Heresy, is to be totally perfect (and without sin without Jesus’s Robe of Righteousness),"

Exactly. This an easy “out” because it is so very nebulous…this “attainment” can never be proven and can pass from generation to generation because they will never be “perfect” enough. Talk about a pointless theology!

(Cfowler) #135

I’m not sure what to say. I don’t know anything about RC Sproul, Jr. I do know who RC Sproul (the dad) is, but I’ve never listened to him speak or read any of his books.

I do really like Tim Keller. I don’t believe for one second that he spanks his wife, or would even think this is okay. As to him sitting in Sproul’s living room when he was 23, does that make him a devotee of his, or a person who spanks his wife, or thinks it’s okay.

Never, prior to joining Adventism, nor in the 15 years since leaving have I known any Christian who believes or lives in the way of Gothard, in this crazy wife beating, disrespecting women or children. In fact, quite the opposite. These ideas and pastors that subscribe to the things you have spoken of are totally foreign to me, and any church, or man (and his wife and family) that i’ve ever known are absolutely nothing like what you have described.

As to Keller, I don’t think he could have grown a church in NYC (of all places) filled with professionals, artists, skeptics, (a very diverse crowd) to thousands of members if he advocated wife-spanking or subordinating women.

Is there a reason that you have brought this up?


Keller was nominated for a prestigious award from Princeton Theological Seminary. One of the critics of that decision was Carol Howard Merritt who blogs for Christian Century. She called Keller’s complementarian theology “toxic” and pointed out that Biblical womanhood, the Headship Heresy and male authority teaches a woman that if she questions authority, the full force of the church community backs this up.


Would you be so kind as to tell me where in this document the author explains how the Adventist pioneers taught something different than WO opponents today, even though they both believed women cannot serve as ruling elders according to the Bible?


Seems to me you refused before to define what you meant by LGT. Chudleigh’s paper is a case in point. I don’t think our pioneers ascribed to everything he says headship theology teaches, and thus we can’t label their beliefs as headship theology, even though they made the same conclusion as the anti-WO folk do. is probably a good reference, a non-Adventist one, presumably. The authors of the book have a website as well.


Sorry for the confusion—nothing about Tim Keller—I should have edited that part out. :frowning:

Phil thinks the Trinity issue is very important—he talked about the Immanent Trinity & the Economic Trinity, and I showed that a Reformed preacher like Sproul believed like Phil about the Trinity, but still had Headship issues.

That’s all it was—sorry to bother! I wasn’t saying Tim spanks his wife or had anything to do with my point. Sloppy communicator! :roll_eyes:


That’s essentially irrelevant to the question at hand. It is in articles explaining why women can preach that the pioneers said that women can’t be ruling elders, or something along those lines. J. H. Waggoner was the one who referred to ruling elders, but I recently found a similar statement by James White, and I think I’ve found one by Uriah Smith as well.

WO is all about whether women can be ruling elders, not whether they can preach.

(George Tichy) #141

Oh my, Cassie! don’t start this one about domestic violence. I will be tempted to write about it… For 12 years my full time job was running treatment groups for domestic violence perpetrators who were sent by the Courts. Most of that time I ran 17 2-hour groups a week, with about 15 guys in each. They had to attend it for 52 weeks. Option: jail. And then taking the classes anyways… :open_mouth:

This job taught me more about human behavior than any class at any level including graduate school! And a wide spectrum of issues related to life.

Well, I changed to another area of expertise some 15 years ago, but I still have that knowledge fresh in my mind. Great experience.