Sincerity in Rule Keeping Can Destroy

(Allen Shepherd) #141

I have heard all kinds of accusations. But whether they are true or not, or are interpretations of events, it is hard to tell.

Perhaps I might name a few. 1. the “suppression of he TORC” They did not agree among themselves, and were an advisory committee. Would it have made a difference? I am not sure, and am not sure it was deceit behind it. That is an interpretation.
2. The voting machines. That was the African or South American delegations. I am not sure it was devised by Wilson. And one could interpret it as a method of making sure the votes were not counted in secret and made to reflect the will of he pro WO forces.
3. We did discuss this for a year. No holds barred.

Again, go ahead.

(Allen Shepherd) #142

George, So far there has been no collision shown. So, it is an act of faith to believe that there was. Mueller may come up with something, but so far, zilch. But, have faith!!

I might add that Trump Jr. made public all the e-mails regarding the meeting at Trump tower right after the meeting became public knowledge (and I have not heard that there is dispute about the completeness of his revelation) That is in contrast to Hillary’s destruction of hers.

Now, I am just wondering who had something to hide?

(George Tichy) #143

I am astonished Allen, that this time you talked only about Hillary, and left Obama out. What happened, did you actually forgot? Every time we discuss Trump, both H. and O. are immediately brought up -certainly to serve as distractions to Trump’s immorality, corruption, lies, etc.

I understand you are proud of Trump’s behavior and character. Are you teaching your congregation to imitate him and keep him as a role model? I wouldn’t be surprised at all!

And I agree, I don’t believe there was (is) any “collision” with the Russians. Only agreement so far; no collision, you are right.

Now, collusion, that appears evident, just a matter of time to surface. So many already indicted, several in jail. More to come, stay tuned!!!

(Allen Shepherd) #144

Your gal was a crook, George. Destroyed state evidence. Trump has handed over 100s of thousands of documents, and as far as I know has not destroyed anything, or wiped it clean. He has even answered Mueller in writing, something the FBI did not require of Hillary, or even that she be questioned under oath. I don’t get the double standard. Now you can hate him, but to be so obviously biased is not right.

I have admitted before, you seem to forget, that I do not admire Trump’s character. He is immoral. He exaggerates and lies, and seems to have a light grasp of some matters.

But, think of Obama trying to get anything done with a press that was uniformly hostile and condemning. Dems, and many Republicans against him. And yet, he enforced Obama’s red line, crushed ISIS, has moved the economy forward ( Paul Krugman, Nobel Economist of the NYT said the Stock market would go into a permanent slide if Trump were elected {who votes for these Nobel folk anyway?}), has engaged the North Koreans, bringing back remains, and gotten NATO to start paying their share. The black and hispanic jobless rates are the lowest ever. etc.

So, sure not the prefect guy. But not bad for the country. If the Dem’s had any smarts, they would have said, “Hey, this guy is no ideologue, I bet we can get some things we want.” And they would have. Instead, they go whole hog resistance. Has hurt the country, George.

This collusion (and it is not evident) thing has been a planned distraction. You should not be proud of it.

(George Tichy) #145

Please, don’t put words in my mouth Allen. Can you quote me on that? Of course not! SO please, cease and desist!

And it’s not a matter of being proud. If the investigation reveals no collusion, OK. If it reveals collusion, I hope the Constitution will be respected and applied.

Please, be sure that in 2020 you vote for Trump. It will be your opportunity to get “more of it!”…

(Allen Shepherd) #146

There, I quoted you.

Really George? 2 years, millions of dollars, oceans of ink spent on speculation? I read an article titled, "What if Trump Refused to do a Perp walk? No substance at all. No evidence. Just gall and innuendo.

It was disgusting, and disrespectful. Obama was given a pass on every misstep. They worshipped at his clay feet like the idolators they are. This guy gets absolutely NO slack. No one has done what he has under such circumstances with almost no credit.

And yeah, if I get a chance I will vote for him…

(George Tichy) #147

Of course you will Allen! I am sure of that. He is your guy, you can’t vote for anyone else, it would be a betrayal. Not good.

(Frankmer7) #148

Incredible similarity, George! Talk about the church reflecting the world! But, we know nothing unseemly went on in either case. It’s all just…coincidence!


(George Tichy) #149

Or the same spirit is claiming success on both fronts??? :fearful:

(Frankmer7) #150

They didn’t agree among themselves? They voted by a super-majority determining that WO was not against a biblical prohibition! That was far more decisive than the vote of the GC convention.

In the end, that isn’t even the point, Allen. Nor is whether or not it would have made a difference. TW commissioned their work. It carried on for over a year. Significant financial outlay went into it. They came up with a result he didn’t like. There is no disputing these facts! Then, the results weren’t presented to the assembled GC. Coincidence? Happenstance? The simple appearance of this stinks to high heaven, Allen. But you seem to buy into the end justifies the means type of thinking. The vote was gonna go how it was gonna go, so what’s the difference? Sorry, Allen, that just doesn’t ethically fly.

The best one could come up with was that this was an omission created by sheer incompetence. That doesn’t even seem feasible for such a political animal as Wilson. The worst is that this was withheld as a manipulative tactic to cover every base. Neither explanation is acceptable. Frankly, it’s sickening!

The report is that the GC ended up paying a non disclosure settlement to the manufacturing company because the GC’s statement that the system malfunctioned was false. Again whatever the reasoning for the system, why would they not tell the truth about it, and why would the agreement get paid out if there was no thought about impacting the vote? We are looking at another highly questionable ethical scenario…that you seem to make excuses for. Coincidence, again? Happenstance, again? Check it out for yourself. If this is wrong, I stand corrected.

Again, go ahead.


(Frankmer7) #151

She’s not the president. He is. And he and his family are being investigated in NYC and DC for criminal and potentially treasonous activity. Stop making excuses for him by pointing to her sins. You’re either in total denial about him, or you just can’t stand her to the point that whatever he does is acceptable to you. It ends up sounding like the defense of a kindergartner…she did it, too!

Look…we knew what he was all about for years in NY. We saw how he operated. This is a man who never lived by accountability to anyone except himself and his personal bottom line. He functioned as if ethics, morality, tax laws, etc., didn’t apply to him. He bought and legally wrangled his way out of everything. He’s now the POTUS. He’s now trying to hide behind presidential privilege. It’s coming to an end.

Not bad for the country? The one area in which he was claiming success, the economy, is now experiencing a total reversal. The stock market is in free fall. His tax cuts have benefited no one except his wealthy cronies. He announced that they were the beneficiaries of it to begin with at a party in his Florida residence.

Publicly stating that climate change isn’t man made, withdrawing from participation in multi lateral cooperation to solve this growing disaster, withdrawing the US into a growing economic isolationism and ceding trade leadership on the Pacific Rim to China, publicly cozying up to murderous dictators while throwing our allies into confusion with his mercurial swings and apparent lack of endorsement of them, and a staff and cabinet that is like nothing we’ve ever seen with its revolving door and lack of stability, that again leaves our allies turning away from Washington’s leadership, and now a government shutdown over his wall, that he originally lied about concerning Mexico’s payment, isn’t bad for the country???

You also argue for his transparency compared to Hilary? Where are his income taxes, Allen?? We’re still waiting! Why is he hiding them? Additionally, his Twitter stream and public statements, along with the statements of those around him, Giuliani, Sanders, Conway, etc., reveal a stream of serial lying that is simply breathtaking! No media spin is needed. Their own words incriminate them.

The blindness and excuses of his supporters are astounding.


(Kim Green) #152

Allen, as I have said over and over again- my husband, Brother and Sister IL, were there and they all were pretty appalled at the way things were conducted and attitudes of those from Developing Countries. They could also see how the “vote” was being manipulated. Different people…different POVs.


I hope you are feeling better. I’m not sure I am being excessively critical in context where such view is accurate. I’m not claiming that every church is guilty of that mindset, but I would say that such mindset is the tendency of SDA churches today, and my criticism is directed at a very specific brand of mentality, which should be rather obvious from the points I was making. If it’s not, then I would certainly specify what mindset I am criticizing.

I don’t question your intentions, but you still misunderstanding my position on the issue, hence it’s actually seems to be a mirror reflection of the mindset that I’m talking about. It doesn’t try to ask questions in order to clarify and understand certain position.

I’ll try again:

  1. I’m not against ideals, and neither are younger generations. Ideals are great.

  2. Ideals can’t be achieved absent from environment that cultivates such ideals.

  3. There will be people who will beat cultural odds, but only via “inter-sectional circumstances” that complimented certain mindset.

I’ll give you an example. I was brought up in a secular Soviet State. So, by all means of geolocation tendencies, I shouldn’t be a person who never drank alcohol or smoked, a believer in God, or a person who didn’t have sex before marriage.

How did I manage to do all of these? Well… sports. Sports cast me into extreme context of discipline in which we were pushed to our limits, and it was made rather clear to us that young people who drink, smoke, or get tangled up in meaningless relationships tend to not do well in sports. In fact, we were mostly too tired by the time 3-4 hr practice was done.

So, these ideals were drilled into me every day in practicing sports, which occupied most of my time as a substitution for other cultural activity. Hence, I’ve had a healthy alternative to occupy my time with. And sports lead me to education context in US, which turned out to be a Christian one, and the rest is history. Absent of of ideals that had some existential importance embodied in some communal activity I would likely be drinking, smoking, and having teen sex… and attributing it all to short and meaningless life without higher purpose, much like most of my contemporaries who not only had plenty of time and energy to do so, but were encouraged to do so culturally.

The point being, the young generation today are deeply engaged in present day culture that has virtually all of their time, beginning with school, ending with entertainment and modern communications that’s specifically designed to make sure they spend enormous amount of time consuming that media.

As an alternative… this is what your church site looks like:

That’s what passes for “effort to engage culture”.

There’s no debate here about which culture ends up winning.

Exactly! Now, apply that sentence to the present day organizational efforts and you have a good starting point as to what needs to be improved.

The state of younger generation today is not reflecting of their failure. It’s reflecting of our failure, including mine… since I’m “old-enough” to be counted in. And yes, we should be judged severely for what we do or don’t do in respect to creating adequate community for our children. They are not failing. We are failing them.


Again you misunderstand, so perhaps a sports analogy would do. Coming back to my sports experience, we’ve had a wide range of behavioral complexity and behavioral outcomes that are channeled through a competitive setting of a rather arbitrary game of basketball. The concept of “sin” in a game of basketball is not merely missing an important and game-winning free-throw, because that’s not how games are won or lost.

As any professional basketball player knows, there’s a wide range of factors that feed into “better basketball player” and “better team”, and these include sleep, diet, water intake, proper approach to practice (ideal practice), lots and lots of repetition of that ideal practice that solidifies ideal habits… which has to be balanced by the social aspect of the game in terms of trust and team cohesion, and that’s what eventually wins games.

Hence, it may seem to an observer that a single shot would have won or lost the game, the reality far more y complex, but such reality is abstracted from a fan who only sees the game as an outcome of a “decisive event”.

Hence, sin isn’t isolated action or isolated thought, because there are no isolated actions or isolated thoughts. All of these reside on a continuum of “human development”.

What “fundamentalism mindset” has done is it narrowed focus on “missed shots”, while it proceeded to ignore the reality of the rest of the paradigm that results in “winning culture”, largely because it attributed it to “magical operations by which God uploads knowledge into people’s brains”… or “The work of Holy Spirit”. And we are now finding out that there is no such magic in reality. God entrusted us with responsibilities, and He intervenes only when necessary.

As such, the practice was shifted into “reading the Bible”, or “prayer” or “going to church”. It stopped being about maintaining local communities that perpetuated certain moral tradition and took care of each other in context of close-nit families that collectively raise their children and supplied each other with goods and services.

Today, raising children is a job of 2 parents who work in a distant city and hand their children off to a school system so that they have time to work some 80+ hrs. Their children will not have context for any viable reality aside from what culture instills into them as a “norm”. Hence, while pastors spend hours upon hours prepping and delivering sermons, there are virtually no efforts to prepping and maintaining self-sustaining communities which is what a church is. We don’t raise our children as communities of believers, because such communities are eroded or non-existent.

Hence, the context of sin is not a “thought”. And it’s precisely the tragedy of modern church. The people who are in charge think that’s what sin is. So, they end up fighting against “immoral thoughts” as opposed to turning that energy towards building communities of trust, respect, and synergistic growth that naturally turn focus to righteousness.

(George Tichy) #155

As we saw several times, “ethics” is the least of concerns for this GC.
Suppressing a document like the TOSC reports is nothing but an ethical crime. And it was, of course, intentional. Therefore, no excuses are acceptable.


This is heart-breaking. The organization has changed; leaders have changed. Suppressing such an important document created by representatives from all over the world would not have happened.

The ordained and annointed leaders are changing the direction and ethics of our church. What will 2019 hold?

(Frankmer7) #157

Again, this is so well put and so on the mark…in every way. Thank you!


(Allen Shepherd) #158

This is off topic, and I don’t have time nor the energy to answer youse guys now, but I subscribe to a Catholic journal, that’s right a beastly journal, First Things. It often has good articles, but the one in the january issue called “Shame Storm” is just excellent. Describes what it is like to be publicly shamed, a thing done by various groups to destroy someone. It is very insightful.

And example is the New Yorker that posted 32 articles in 24 hours about the Kanehaufh hearing, all negative toward him (Not the Gawker, mind you, the New Yorker). I mention this to show that the left can be unkind and brutal, but also that this sort of shaming is a technique that is used by some to get their way across. it is a really good read, to show what shaming really is like. And how it has been used.

(Allen Shepherd) #159

Maybe you need to be specific. Your criticism is too broad. I will leave it at that.

You confuse me. You point to yourself as one who was challenged by sports that resulted in a positive result., you criticize my church for their website, knowing nothing of what we really do, agree with my statement about low expectations, and then criticize yourself!

I challenge my young people to live godly lives. Just as difficult as a sports program, maybe even more so. Some take the challenge. I challenge them intellectually, as I teach at our little church school. Some take the challenge.

But I never send them packing with the comment “Good riddance!” Some fail, and I am sad. But they all know what the Christian life looks like, for there are people here that live it and express their love for the young and the young know they are loved.

How do you know we don’t do that? I find your judgmentalism and actually arrogance astounding. Ready to write someone off because you don’t like that they sound “fundamentalist”. I did spend time on sermons, for that is a very important engagement with the people and especially the youth. But I used to spend hours with the youth.

Let me give an example, since you have. We ran a home school cooperative high school at the church for families that did not want to send their kids to the far off academy. The woman who oversaw the students along with me and another retired teacher was a wonderful woman. She had had a child out of wedlock was a youth, understood young people, could keep them on task, and loved them all dearly. Another church near by failed when they tried to do it. We did not. We have several that graduated from the school that are doing well. Some not so well. But we put in the effort, we “fundamentalist folk.”

I agree with a lot of what you have said, but the judgmentalism could be dropped with improvement. "Fundamentalists can do some wonderful things, if they have love in their hearts. So can liberals.

(Allen Shepherd) #160

Show that there was a nefarious motive rather than speculating. Then I will believe the action stunk to high heaven.

See, you judge me as one who would take that position. I did not care which way it went. If the GC had voted for it, I would have had no problem; but you accuse me of some sort of deviant motive because I don’t agree with you. Such judgments show that you cannot look at this objectively. And I am not an ethical person too!

The Machines. Again, i don’t have the inside dope, but it seems you do not either. If you don’t know what really happened, then you can’t make a judgment, but only an innuendo. Best not to.

  1. She is still a crook. It was one reason she is not the president.
  2. Investigation into does not mean guilt.

Frank, did you read my post? I am not making excuses for him. How do you get that I am “in total denial”? Because I don’t agree with you? Can’t you see a more middle course?

I hate to mention this, but the other candidate did the same sort of thing. So it was a choice between two evils. I chose the one who would support policies that I valued, and one who would not treat me as a “deplorable” person. In my shoes, would you not have done the same?

Now to the country at large.

  1. The economy. Friday, the DOW was up, but there has been a correction. The longest bull market has ended as they all do eventually. The stock market is not in free fall. How can you say that? I know why: you are an extreme partisan. Trump has had a very positive effect on all Americas, especially the lower class. Best Christmas season for retailers ever. And the end of the 9 year rally was coming no matter who was president.

  2. Global warming. I agree it is happening. The Paris accord was a sham, though, and would have had almost no effect whatsoever. So Trump ditched it wisely. There is no good way to reverse the warming, so a better strategy than hamstringing economies is to make preparation for it, and not the direst predictions either.

  3. We have not ceded leadership to China

  4. Cozying up. Like to whom? Putin? The sanctions on Russia are better than under Obama. Get real on this North Korea? Iran? He has challenged them.

  5. Our Allies? They are now paying at least part of their fair share. The needed to be some turmoil here.

  6. The wall. There needs to be something done about the border. Even the WP wrote for the congress to give him the wall. Dems are just as guilty of problems here. I agree about Mexico. But that does not change the fact that something should be done, and the Dem’s are the fly in the ointment.

7, Transparency. Are his taxes that important? Hillary destroys state evidence, and yo sit on your hands? It think that a bigger thing than not showing the taxes. And besides, one year has been made public and it showed he paid bigger taxes than did Obama.

  1. The tweets and lies. The tweets show he is transparent, more than any other president. The lies will catch up to him. But you need to understand something here. The “fact checkers” are a biased bunch of folk that often call opinion lies. I have researched it a bit. Yes, he overstates and exaggerates, but there is no president that has had the scrutiny he has. The fact checkers gave Obama a pass. That does not excuse Trump, but methinks thou dost protest too much…

The blindness and utter bias of his opponents is absolutely astounding.