Social Distancing and Community — the Dilemma of Re-opening Churches

What are you complaining about? I live in Australia too. The reason we are now able to open up again in a measured way, hopefully without sacrificing people like you, is because of the measures taken which allowed our medical system time to catch-up.

If we had not done what we did, our medical system would more than likely have been overrun too.

You are complaining because it succeeded? You would rather we lost another 1000 nursing home residents but kept more shops open for 6 weeks?

3 Likes

Peter, what are you reading? There is no culture of fear nor epidemic of control.

If anything the prosperity of the last 50 years or so enjoyed in the West has been unique and we have become lulled into a false sense of security.

We don’t understand this virus very well yet but it is highly contagious and very deadly for a large proportion of the population at least. The only difference is our greater ability to respond.

Governments have always been allowed a great deal more flexibility by courts in times of war and I presume pestilence. Go back and look at some of the restrictions on liberty during WW2 even and they make what we have now look like nothing. Ask someone with citizens of the West of Japanese, German or Italian heritage who spent years locked up.

I think you are being fed spurious arguments by people with a political bias and an axe to grind.
There is no one size fits all guidebook to follow here but Australia has done a tremendous job and hopefully the rebound is not thwarted by your innocuous virus that the elderly of NY and ICU staff may find startling.

I don’t think that’s what he meant about unprecedented. The scope of governmental response and control is unprecedented and arguably unjustified.

If we are going to discuss the context for human ignorance, I think we should discuss the tendency for those in power to constantly attempt to grab more of it, with plentiful historical precedents. Actually, the opposite is very rare, if non-existent.

Financial system is a collective contractual system, meaning that we all agree to operate within its scope in order to keep productive societies. So, that’s true for both the range of actions governments can do over economic activity of people who do play by the rules, and likewise what governments can do to avoid corruption.

During all of this, I feel like I’m watching a diehard movie in which John McClane is running around town distracted with meaningless threats, while there’s a huge heist going on where enormous amounts of financial wealth is simply transferred for both political control, and financial gain… all no-questions asked.

All of that is on top of establishing new parameters for the health-oriented draconian tracking of people in the future… which our church simply goes along with with very few people sounding alarms.

1 Like

Maybe because the devil knew too much how we waited for the Sunday Law (in fact some predicted in 2018 that it will be imposed in 2019) that he give us the virus for a while. :laughing:

2 Likes

Andrew,

Please give me the Sabbath to rest and then I will take time to give you a comprehensive answer. There are good responses to the points you raise. For your information, my twin brother is a pulmonologist, a Harvard trained epidemiologist and an ICU doc working in a cardiac and pulmonary ICU. My neice is an infectious diseases specialist. My sister-in-law and daughter are ER docs who have seen their hospital censuses take a dive. I don’t think I am insensitive to the needs of Covid-19 patients. Just this afternoon on the Australian Broadcasting Commisions ‘Afternoon Briefing’ a mental health specialist was being interviewed about the suicides that can already be forecast as a result of the lockdown and the ensuing social dislocation and economic downturn. I am glad the Australian government are beginning to think of this.

4 Likes

Endumatos,
It is Friday evening on the eastern seaboard of Australia. Please give me the Sabbath to rest and I will respond to your comments.

1 Like

The only error in this lockdown was that it was not strong enough, it was partial and not total. The price for this error will be extremely high both in human lives and economically. All because of Trump’s attempt, since day one, to minimize it and to hide the real data about it. And, of course, for keeping us 3 months behind in the actions that should have been taken to combat it efficiently.

2 Likes

I agree with all you said. This crisis is MUCH worse and consequential than people are thinking. The scientists know it, but unfortunately we have a President who supports protesters who are protesting against HIS own safety policies. How intelligent is that?

1 Like

FOX news can deceive people around the whole globe!

With Zoom, GoogleMeet, etc., won’t it be nice for local conference executive officers–president, secretary, treasurer–to engage us members in direct, meaningful conversation? Are they open to suggestions from members of their local congregations? If I have a question, please don’t redirect me for an answer to my pastors or the regional coordinator/VP. Please?

Yes, social-distancing should be part of community building, pro rather than in opposition to it. In the ethnic church where I fellowship, when we were told to replace handshakes with fist or elbow bumps, one suggestion was: How about head bow instead? Like the Japanese. Korean.

A huge “absolutely” to the above. Now, Trump has announced a vaccine by the end of December. How is that possible? Vaccines usually take years to develop and go through safety trials. Was the vaccine already there, ready to go? I’m thinking, yes.

Another issue…the censoring of any doctors who offer any type of view outside of the official narrative. Why are any alternative viewpoints marginalized and censored?

4 Likes

lucky, lucky you… :slightly_smiling_face:

statistics like these reinforce the view that covid-10 is deterred by warm, sunny weather, and that the months ahead will be much better for n. america and europe…

1 Like

Religionists are feeding much of the ‘anti’ message as well. Religion and science have always been enemies, when it is in conflict with preconceptions. Religious belief systems predate an understanding of the natural world. The Gods were in control of all. One lived in fear. That continues even today, just listen to all the evangelicals touting ‘end times’, ‘retribution from God’, humankind needs to get back to ‘God’, etc, etc.It is only natural that the political world find that ‘fear’ to their advantage for use. Fear has always been used as a tactic to control the emotions, thoughts and beliefs of peoples, since the dawn of Biblical humanity.

1 Like

Andrew
You correctly state that “ the CDC ( Center for Disease Control ) FUMBLED THE TESTING RIGHT FROM THE START “.

Yes indeed, the CDC botched the entire operation in a woefully incompetent, disgusting, disgraceful way.

However I must point out that the CDC is a bunch of long term aging bureaucrats who have been employed there for decades, most of them appointees of Obama / Biden, or even working since the Bush’s era.

They are part of the “WASHINGTON SWAMP “ —— the so called “ DEEP STATE “- holdovers from prior administrations, and not Trump supporters — in fact, saboteurs of Trump - fifth columnists.

If Trump had been a savvy politician, instead of an entrepreneurial businessman , he would have cleared the decks of these incompetent
appointees by his predecessors.

Trump should certainly not be held accountable for the failings of long term bureaucrats that he did not hire.

I doubt it, but I don’t know. I’m not sure whether it matters, given that proper testing takes time, and requires broader data from animal testing first before limited human ones.

But, even then, there’s a huge chunk of population today like JWs who will cite religious exemption, and there will be a large number of people joining in. Then what? What is Bill going to do, demonize them and keep playing this into the proverbial 666 scenario by denying them schooling and social participation?

Is Trump really going to deploy military and immunize people against their will, even if they don’t want to. And there’s enough of information got spread that will have people thinking twice, especially when it comes to children.

There’s already blowback in Italy over this issue. In the US it’s going to be more severe. I doubt that poor black population will trust this. I talk to people quite a bit to gauge their opinion. It looks like it falls along the political lines. People who are against Trump tend to repeat that vaccine is the only real and final solution. People who are in the right, or certain minority groups, tend to look at this issue with more distrust.

It will be interesting as it unfolds as to how much of this “new norm” people are going to accept and comply with. But, I doubt that vaccine is here. Operation Warp Speed is more for political meneuvering Imo.

It’s not really the first in the medical bereaucratic technocracy that doesn’t like to be wrong on anything. Generally, the higher up the chain you go, the more arrogance you get.

And there has been a very steady progress of enshrining “the doctor”, “the academic”, and “the scientists” into a position of authority … With “titles of nobility” ascribed to them.

Of course there are plenty (if not most) humble people who spend a great deal in life of service , and title is only a secondary marker of certain specialization. Unfortunately a lot of people tend to abuse it when it comes to assuming that no one except these people can viably understand the problems in human body and prescribed solutions. And now, this extended to technocratic rule and restructuring of societal norms to run along the lines of “expert recommendation”.

We it into account, but ironicall the booze and cigarettes are still on the shelves for everyone to buy and slowly kill themselves. We still driving, in spite of 40k deaths per year, and who knows how many injuries. Cancer and diabetes causing food is there too. But , we must lock down for virus… because we are irresponsible children apparently who can’t be trusted with taking precautionary measures to protect people at risk.

1 Like

Today in Trump’s press conference he made it seem that the vaccination isn’t going to be mandatory…we’ll see. I certainly hope not. As to whether it will be against someone’s will, I guess it depends on how far they want to take it. Will there be a penalty for not getting it? All yet to be determined.

Perhaps, but I tend to think that it is, or will be by Dec. or Jan. Time will tell.

1 Like

Some say its better to open
Its a fake moral perception

1 Like

@StumblingBlock
I don’t watch Fox! [Correction - The first time in my life that I watched it was about 3 days ago in a YouTube clip of Ben Carson. He was being interviewed in his role as Chair of America’s revitalization taskforce or some such thing. I am not American and Fox is unavailable on my television].

I have told you where I have attempted to get my information from about Covid-19. I have listed the many world class scientists and others who I have gotten my information from. People like John Ioannidis, Jay Bhattacharya, and Michael Levitt (a Nobel Laureate), all of Stanford.

My sources for the term “Culture of Fear” are the works of Prof Emeritus Frank Furedi, a Hugarian British public intellectual and sociologist of note. Interestingly, he argues that “one of the main drivers of the culture of fear is the unravelling of moral authority. Fear appears to provide provisional solution to moral uncertainty and it is for this reasonembraced by a variety of interests, parties and individuals. Furedi predicts that until society finds a more positive orientation towards uncertainty the politicisation of fear will flourish. Society is continually bombarded with the message that the threats it faces are incalculable and cannot be managed or contained. The ascendancy of this outlook has been paralled by the cultivation of helplessness and passivity - all this has heightened people’s sense of powerlessness and anxiety. As a consequence we are constantly searching for new forms of security…” (from the dust jacket of his book How Fear Works: Culture of Fear in the 21st Century

The term “Epidemic of Control” is taken from a YouTube video of the same name by Charles Eisenstein, a celebrated American writer and speaker about the intersection between systems design and personal growth. I would have thought that he is hardly the type to be reactionary or on the far right of any spectrum. I quote from the transcript of said video, “None of our responses to COVID-19 are really new, They are intensifications of trends that have been going on for a long time. For example, the migration of social interaction onto the internet …, or commerce online, or the regime of hygiene and the fear of germs, or the movement of life indoors, or the restriction of political freedoms, the censorship of information, the destruction of small businesses, or the increasing medicalization of life. All these things were already happening, And now we get to ask - Do we want them to continue to happen, now that we are being shown what will happen if they are taken to the extreme. My hope is that we will say “No.” We don’t want to sacrifice everything for the holy cause of risk minimization.” Further, he moves on to talk about addictions, “Addictions work temporarily to dull the pain. They originate as a coping mechanism. And the problem is that to keep working gets greater and greater. So, on a grand scale, I think that we have a soiety that is itself addicted to control. Addiction is used to control life in some way, to control pain, to control emotions that control other people … So our culture, our society responds to its problems throughvarious technologies of control.”

1 Like

judy mikovits is a real phenomenon, and i think she’s picking up steam…if what her latest book charges dr. fauci with is even half true, i think we have one of the most sensational stories of our time on our hands…what keeps me from believing her completely is that no-one else agrees with her…her view that covid-19 cannot have come from wet market consumption of bats, and that coronavirus cannot infect humans, seems a bit extreme…after-all, MERS and SARS were both coronaviruses…and to say that vaccinations actually expedite what they’re trying to prevent doesn’t seem scientifically sound (or even biologically possible)…

of course there is the possibility that she’s auditioning for a spot on the trump team, and is saying what she believes he wants to hear, and what she may have come to believe herself (in fact she may be mentally ill)…she’s big on not withdrawing one of her research papers under academic pressure, but she doesn’t mention the paper she did withdraw…

so it’s hard to know what to make of her at this point…i’d love to see her do an hour long interview on one of the major networks with a host who has a background in virology…

1 Like

I personally think our sanitariums and doctors need to be accountable if straying from EGW principles

1 Like