Speaking Out Against Last Generation Theology


(Elmer Cupino) #367

Is this what LGT teaches? That we do not have to work towards perfection? That our perfection is imparted by God? You’d flunk your own survey.

Wonder what our good friend @kevindpaulson would have to say? Kevin, does LGT teach perfection is imparted to us by God?


(Elmer Cupino) #368

God has no conscience. That is what makes Him God. Is this the kind of perfectness LGT is all about?


#369

EX. If you are a smoker and want to quit. You must throw away cigs, ashtrays, etc. There is a part to play. You have a job. God will not just miraculously remove them. However, He will impart His power to overcome the addiction.

We are co-laborers, but the power alone is from God


(Barry Ford) #370

Just a few questions.
Isn,t this LGT the same as as the Brinsmead heresy? Isn’t perfection the Roman Catholic belief that Martin Luther fought?
I know some relatives of Brinsmead and they followed him faithfully. They were so thankful when Brinsmead changed his mind about perfection they told me what a terrible struggle they had in their goal for perfection.


(Phillip Brantley) #371

There is a significant difference between Ellen White’s theoretical pronouncements and her personal counsel to individuals in particular factual contexts. Yes, she theoretically pronounces to her readers that they should be perfect. Such pronouncements are exhortations, which by their very nature are overbroad, hyperbolic, and implicitly suggestive that you are still OK even if you do not totally succeed. But we have no examples in her writings of personal counsel to any individual in a particular factual context that such individual must be perfect. Indeed, her personal counsel invariably argues in opposition to Last Generation Theology, as evidenced for example by her letter of opposition to church members who agitated to disfellowship a chronic and recidivist smoker. If you really want to know what Ellen White thought and believed, pay close attention to her personal counsel to individuals in particular factual contexts and less attention to her theoretical pronouncements.


#372

In other words, cherry pick and apply your own understanding.


(le vieux) #373

I believe it was well articulated in a quote from Ellen White in post #310. Sanctification is a lifelong process which culminates in what is described in The Great Controversy, after the close of probation. Those who have perfected their characters (not perfectionism, as this is erroneously called by some) will no longer choose to sin. After the close of probation, Christ will no longer be mediating in the Most Holy Place. All humanity will be living without a Mediator. The cases of those who have refused the offer of sanctification, are then hopeless. Those who have accepted it, and overcome “by the blood of the Lamb” will not choose to sin after Christ ceases His intercession. The language in Rev. 22 is clear. If there were mediation after that statement, the statement (“Let him that is holy . . . .”) would be meaningless. Those who are sealed will not claim sinlessness. In fact, they feel like Isaiah (“Woe is me . . . .”). Ellen White says that as they look back on their lives, they can see little that is good. It is God who declares them to be without fault, because they have repented, the blood of Christ has covered or wiped away (I’m not a theologian) their sins, and they have reached the level God expects of them. That’s what “be ye perfect” means in the Sermon on the Mount.

Contrary to the assertions of those who deny the power of Christ to keep us from falling (which means they don’t believe Paul), this has been the belief of the SDA Church for well over 100 years.


(Tim Teichman) #374
  1. I’m not your brother.
  2. How do you figure that I have no understanding of scripture?

You can read just as well as I can, I suppose. The passage makes clear statements: People will suddenly vanish. It also says the Son of Man will reappear in the audiences’ lifetime. I suppose, then, that must have happened and we have no record of it.

Or perhaps I can’t understand since I have no understanding of scripture. How do you read its meaning, with your excellent understanding of scripture?


(Tim Teichman) #375

Yes, that’s the Adventist way. Ready, set, get your proof texts ready!


(Tim Teichman) #376

When did you start keeping the law perfectly? How’s it going?


(Tim Teichman) #377

And yet many here seem quite unsure what it means, and those that profess to know, such as yourself, will not share what they think. From sheer embarrassment and shame I suppose.


(Tim Teichman) #378

I wonder if you have any idea how bizarre that sounds to me and probably others here.


(Darrel Lindensmith) #379

I do believe those who are born again believers experience great freedom emotionally and ontologically from sin. The language in Ellen White is over the top. I believe Jesus asked us to strive for perfection (not to gain) but “because” we are saved and loved by God. Freedom from sin should be what we all desire. John wrote “I write these things that you may not sin, but if you do, we have an advocate with the Father-Jesus Christ, who IS righteous.” 1Jn 2

The idea however that we will not need the mediation of Jesus at some point is, to my mind, heretical!

It is nowhere found in Scripture, and it actively negates the power of the Cross and the true Gospel in the believers life. “I, with God’s help, in the end, save myself.”

We are perfect when we are glorified and the second coming of Christ, so says Scripture:
Read the following Scripture from beginning to end 7 times and you will understand:

"Our life is hid with Christ in God. When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall we also appear with him in glory."
Colossians 3:3-4


(George Tichy) #380

Tony,
Elmer @elmer_cupino is being judged in a strange way. Why are you doing it, is it really necessary? I know he can take care of himself, but, come on…

This is what is totally discouraging in this conversation, the fact that everything that comes from your side is directed personally at the people you are talking to. Can you focus on the ideas please without applying them to the person you are talking to?

Maybe you can’t? If it’s the case, the conversation becomes toxic and just vanishes.
Just my opinion.


(Tim Teichman) #381

I couldn’t have said it better. I think it’s an outcome of biblical literalism / fundamental thinking. In order to read the bible as literal history, when you really look at the details, you have to imagine you’re reading about another world where things are magically different. Like Narnia or middle earth.

From Noah’s magic boat, a horrific story, to talking donkeys. But, when a passage becomes inconvenient, then switch gears and say is doesn’t really say what is says, but is just allegory. As a result, we can have a literal 6 days of creation, but then ignore many of the other details of the creation story which reflect a world view that includes a flat earth and a dome above us with water behind it. The six days? Totally real. The other things that just aren’t as described and never really were? Well, you know, the authors didn’t really understand…


#382

Who ever said I meant you were my brother?


(Tim Teichman) #383

You did. You addressed me as “Brother”. But I’m not your brother.


(George Tichy) #384

Exactly! The perfectionism heresy ends up being a total debacle, frustrating people because they cannot EVER reach the goals promised by this idea. They work hard toward perfection, and every day they are reminded that they cannot achieve it - because of their human nature. It’s almost like buying a car from a charlatan, only to realize that the car has no engine and cannot take you anywhere!

One of the dangers is having people finally quitting religion as a whole and becoming atheists. BUT, what about of the possibility of someone even committing suicide d/t spiritual frustration and loss of hope? The LGTarians are targeting the youth - the most vulnerable crowd, easy targets. However, who can predict the effects of this heresy on them when they finally mature years later?

Those LGTarians are messing up with souls, a very dangerous business. And they have no clue on how to fix the mess if a person gets entangled by their distorted religious beliefs/teachings.

Regarding Bob Brisnsmead, I hope Gill @gford1 will be willing to give us some feedback on what you asked since Dr. Ford and her know a lot about this issue. Will you, Gill?


(Phillip Brantley) #385

Don’t pout. Hermeneutics and cherry-picking are not the same thing.


(George Tichy) #386

That’s the “art of the deal,” writing something then negating the meaning of what was written. Hmmmm, isn’t it called the “KP maneuver?”