Ted Wilson’s Obsession with “The Great Controversy”

So do Christians.

There’s a difference between obeying someone you consider the authority in your life, even when you don’t want to particularly, because there is a positive payback of some kind; but doing something for the benefit to someone else, while placing yourself in danger (for example) because that is what you do automatically, without thought to yourself - is in opposition to human impulses. It comes from the “outside” of normal - speaks for a “GOD” influence.

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My mom had a book called “Joy is an Inside Job”.

Don’t know who wrote it and never read it.

But I remembered the name and wonder if the same can’t be said of creatures and creation.

Oh, and I get that you don’t see it this way, but I’m still not willing to accept the reality of anything that is truly “outside” of anything and/or everything.

No, Sir ! I just remmebered Platons definition for his “personal” daimwn when we had to read / study / translate the author - and I did not anymore have the original text at hands recently - - (it was a case of misuse and polemic about / against - - certain music , given by a SDA convert out of the disco scenery**). Platon rather is near to Sophokles’ Antigone, who refers to the “other law” she is obedient to "- and nobody knows from where this came - " ( - the righteously living pagan and his conscience ? - Antigone was facing the death sentence for doing an act of mercy ! )

** : " - and Platon says this is given by his demon, the music, and he really knows what he says - and so my music then was demonic ! - Clear ?“”

I stand corrected…I guess.

@bruce clements, there is a sculpture in a Swiss city (Luzern) , created by some local artist, showing a young couple joyfully jumping throuhg the scenery while holding their hands, " Adam and Eve " - - one of the artists friends is to have said at his first sight of the artifact : " Well, I would say they are the two in Paradise - were they not sooo happy - joyful as depicted in their action !

*( "DAIMWN - See, I just looked through Wikipedia - well, for me today it again is of value to read Platon on the mattrer of daimwn again - I will get the text by amazon - - Tusculum Buecher - Sophokles Antigone is on my bookshelv - )

This sculpture, called Ex Nihilo, is over the north entrance to The National Cathedral in Washington, D. C.:

My wife had a (very small) hand in carving the piece. We were visiting the church while the sculptor was working on it and he let my wife have a turn using the pneumatic chisel.

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There are umpteen ways of describing the ineffable. What you describe sounds Buddhist somehow - and it might be right, on some level. Our problem (all of us here) we have been taught that we are not composed of three parts - spirit, body, soul; yet, the NT uses “spirit” many times in connection with the “Jesus/Christ” story, starting with his birth, - baptism, - Nicodemus story, and even in a description of our baptism (John’s baptism vs Christ’s baptism with the Spirit).

I’m picturing the man/God relationship as potter/clay. Nothing comes from nothing, so creation needs a CREATOR. A spontaneous ordering of particles and energy makes no sense since the laws of sience also need an author. As a result, our connection to the CREATOR is created (authored) by the creator. Since the world runs on some level of logic as represented by mathematics, an intelligence, similar to ours must be responsible based on what we keep discovering.

The Creator “speaks” to us like we speak to a toddler - with pictures and symbols. We keep asking if God needed Jesus to die on the cross in order to forgive our sins - the answer is, NO - but we need to see that forgiveness in a stark picture in order to “get it”.

@bartwillruth keeps saying that all the NT stories are a reworking of old stories and characters. Maybe so - like the NT use of the Jewish “Messiah” character. These stories were known generations before Christ; and people could relate more easily.

G.K. Chesterton wrote a whole book about that in The Everlasting Man. What before was myth, was eventually played out in reality. These ancient stories may have been myth, but it doesn’t matter if people’s relationship to them demonstrated how they would respond to the reality of God.

That’s my take, and I’m stickin’ to it. :thinking:

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This is another fine point but I never argued against the concept of a creator.

In fact, I know that @bartwillruth disagrees with me on this, but I am a devout theist.

I just do not see any evidence that he can impose his will on physical matter from the “assumed” outside.

Obviously, I can’t prove that there is an “inside” from which that creator works, either but when I look at nature, I see countless examples of things that seem to have innumerable internal guidance and fabrication systems and from this I hypothesis that creation is very likely an “inside job”.

I do like your idea that this creator, (which I do not assume to be omni-anything or necessarily eternal, BTW) is relegated to simple forms of communication with us, just as there is a limit to the number of concepts I can express to my dog!

:wink:

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this is your 2nd explanation of what you wrote, but i don’t think it’s any clearer than your 1st…i think the real explanation is that you’d misread my original comment, and were responding to what wasn’t there…i don’t have a problem with this…it’s your comment, and you get to say anything you want…but by the same token, i get to point out in my comment that i didn’t say what you’re saying i said…

lol…welcome to the world of diversity, Harry… :slightly_smiling_face:…one thing you might consider is what is actually in the text…Ps 90:10 has no nexus to Gen 6:3, and this would be the first thing to notice…even by the flexible rules of the proof text method - which i think has some value, given that the writers themselves didn’t understand the full significance of what they wrote - there has to be a common subject…there just isn’t a common subject between Ps 90:10 and Gen 6:3…their only point of commonality is your assertion that they both discuss human lifespans…this isn’t evidence they that do (they actually don’t)…

Gen 3:22-24 also isn’t about lifespans…it’s about mortality being imposed as a consequence of Adam and Eve’s disobedience…

the adventist interpretation of the little horn of Dan 8 growing out of one of the four winds in v.9 has the important advantage of gender alignment in the text, as well as continuity with the most recent subject in v.8…it also has continuity with the principle protagonist in Dan 7…

i think you’re making too much of this meat eating connection, Harry…as i understand it, this is only one aspect of antediluvian disobedience to consider, although it is worth considering:

i think the main reason for a decreasing lifespan is decreasing proximity to the tree of life…i also tend to think the human race must have been more sensitive to environment impacts than it is now…for instance, weather patterns seem to have led to distinct race formation at one time, whereas it isn’t now…

we agree here, but again, i would add that things not specified in the text don’t rule out their existence…the only things actually ruled out are things specifically contradicted in the text…

my point is that the narrative in Genesis isn’t necessarily chronological…Moses writes things as they occur to him (and i do think Moses wrote Genesis)…broadly speaking, we can see chronology in the narrative, but there are moments in the narrative where chronology obviously backtracks for the purposes of summation, or to make a new point…for instance, Gen 5:32 and Gen 6:10 both say that Noah begat three sons…obviously this isn’t saying that Noah begat three sons named Shem, Ham and Japheth on two separate occasions…so while i’m not saying that God spoke to Noah before Gen 6:13, we can’t rule it out…we also can’t assume Gen 6:13 comes chronologically after Gen 6:3, or that they aren’t happening simultaneously…

but in any event, it isn’t necessary to tie Noah’s call with the beginning of the 120 yr probation given in Gen 6:3, as you seem to think…strictly speaking, humanity’s probation could have been ticking before Noah’s call, although i think it’s more likely that God’s resolve to impose a probation on the antediluvians and Noah’s call happened together…

lol…keep in mind, i’m not necessarily mainstream Adventism…i don’t speak for the Church, and have no intention of working for the Church…it just happens to be the case that i’m not a burned out adventist, as many other commenters here are, and that my views tend to align with mainstream adventist views, at least at this point…

it’s not a bible study, Harry…i’m merely pointing out why you’re wrong, and i’m right…:slight_smile:

i actually don’t see that what we’re discussing is a serious belief, one way or the other…i’m only responding to your original attempts to show that Noah wasn’t preaching for 120 yrs, as i had stated in my original comment, and purely because i have the time and interest to do so…i think you’re the one that’s investing this entire subject with some kind of doctrinal significance, and seeing in our exchange some kind of evidence that adventist biblical interpretation is suspect…my view is that adventist biblical interpretation is valid because it tends to align with my own interpretation…that’s actually why i’m an adventist…

Isn’t that the issue? Is that now why we have so much division?

it’s tongue and cheek, Jaray…i don’t know whether Harry is an adventist, or how divided we all really are…i think a lot is hyped up and hysterical, actually…

@jeremy vandieman, I acceprt the material about longevity of SDAs - with some precautions :slight_smile:

The study number one , also published by Dan Buetter, shows some 9.6 more years in one subgroup - but also Frazer boasts “Ten More Years” - some (BRI !) even "Twelve More Years " - - that is - well, trumplike - -

The study recently conducted does not rely on randomised samples, but on sollicited volonteers.

The studies are not conducted by neutral institutions - as usually - but by an institution with great interest in certain results.

    • and we here in my country - for example with a long and rich tradition in watercures since Priessnitz, Kneipp, Winternitz, Schlentz, Mariencron, Scherding, Bad Kreuzen, - - with “Reformhaus” (Healthy Food Store, the fist one opening in 1900 ) at every corner of the shopping malls - and with quite different approach to health care and no “Healthism” - -

are flooded with good advices from your environment. (The three days presentation of Neill Nedley at our convention in Bischofsgruen, Germany was simply annoying - - )

(So one of the GC once said at the dinner table here : “Well, you all here are slim, in US we are simply FAT !” - - )

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Really well organized and thoughtful piece. The plan to distribute 1 billion copies of the GC is as hair brained as the plan of some earnest but unhinged SDA acquaintances of mine who were serious about blasting Adventist literature with a cannon from aboard a boat at natives on islands in the S Pacific some years ago.

I think the author makes some really great points as to why the idea is a very bad one!!
By all the responses so far, it would appear that he’s hit a nerve.

The plan to print and distribute such is cult like thinking and behavior. No amount of parsing of words or ideas or theological analysis can make it any different.Preformatted text

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This whole idea about sending the GC or shooting literature at unbelievers is a common troupe among various religious sects. Adventists are unfortunately not immune from this and are doing exactly the same thing and for the same reasons. How is it that we have come to the point where the evangelism in the church has gone so low. It has just become about ourselves. There seems to be this terrible fear that failing extreme actions will result in our downfall as individuals and as a church. This is not the evangelism Jesus taught.

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Stepping outside the bubble is a very important thing to do. It is not an easy experience if one was part of a religious system for a long time , and everything gets way more complicated when the system is nothing but a cult.

That happened to me, that after about 30 years being in the bubble I put one foot outside the bubble in the 80s, when I also “stepped out of the boox”… (the red books…:wink: ), And then, lately my second foot got out of the bubble and pulled my entire body along with it.

And now, looking from the outside of the bubble, I can see the insanity of what I believed before. What a waste of time and of intellectual energy!!!

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They are certainly doing what they feel to be “the best.” Well, just doing the nest may not be enough, it’s doing the right thing that matters. Just having “good intentions” is not enough. “The path to hell is paved with good intentions” isn’t it?.. ':wink:

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The greatest gift we can give to anyone is the Bible. If that individual already has a Bible, we can encourage them to read it and draw closer to Jesus Christ in a saving relationship with Him. If it is studied under the guidance of the Holy Spirit it becomes a powerful tool and it will help others to know Jesus Christ and find salvation in Him.

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Unfortunately this is not what Adventism is about. Adventism is about EGW’s writings. You are talking about a Christian experience. Adventists cannot do that, they MUST include EGW’s writings into the package. This is what defines a cult.

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I like these sentences.

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The 1648 Peace of Westphalia made it clear that each government’s leader would select the national religion, not the pope. The pope raged, but the European princes’ armies made it so.

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