The Adventist Bioethics Consortium (Day 2)


(Nic Samojluk) #131

What you state is a clever distortion of the prolife position on abortion. I have never suggested that the life of the unborn must take precedence over the life of the born. Both have moral value and the life of every human being must be protected.

A physician duty is to save as many lives as he possibly can. If he can save only the life of the mother, he is still doing his duty, Killing is antithetical to the work of a physician.


(Nic Samojluk) #132

You are wrong again! Your position is “absolutist”–not mine! Murder is the intentional killing of an innocent human being. When a physician is faced with an ectopic pregnancy, experts affirm that the most logical outcome is the death of both the mother and her baby.

Under these circumstances, the physician objective is not the death of the baby but rather saving the life of the pregnant woman.

It is a case of unavoidable collateral damage. Saving one life when saving two is impossible is not wrong. You need to think this through instead of embracing and absolutist position.


(Nic Samojluk) #133

Not so! Jesus did justify David’s violation of the sacredness of bread consecrated by the priests which was allowed only to be consumed by priests and their immediate family members.

Are you suggesting that Jesus was wrong in allowing for said exception? Jesus also allowed for an exception to adultery in the event one of the divorced was guilty of infidelity.


(Nic Samojluk) #134

If your premise were true, it would be another case of saving one life instead of loosing two, like the case of an ectopic pregnancy. Read my previous comments regarding ectopic pregnancies.

Nevertheless, my suspicion is that your premise is not a valid one.


(James J Londis) #139

This is helpful. You do not then hold to the most conservative position which denies anyone the choice of which life to save. Important to know that. The next level of decision-making is when the pregnancy is unwanted by the woman for a variety of reasons, some of which are horrendous (anyone pregnant by rape who cannot emotionally bear the thought or experience of carrying the pregnancy to term): is that woman or girl morally “required” to carry that fetus to term? Does she even have a choice? And if she does not have a choice, should her act be considered “murder” and she be prosecuted as a criminal? If not, why not? If yes, how is that justified?


(James J Londis) #140

See below. That clarifies your position.


(Nic Samojluk) #142

Yes, she does have a choice. She can choose to violate the commandment that prohibits the shedding of innocent blood.

Do not forget that Jesus told us to love even our enemies, and the unborn child is not the woman’s enemy. It is her child.

Physically, the baby is very close to her heart, and with God’s help, the baby can also be emotionally close to her heart.

Love is a duty, a choice, and also a gift. A woman can choose to love and nourish or either poison or dismember the body of her own child.

Humanly speaking this is impossible, but with God’s help it is feasible. The woman can choose to obey God or her own fallen nature and feelings.


(Nic Samojluk) #143

From the legal point of view, you cannot prosecute someone who has not violated humanly approved sinful acts.


(Tim Teichman) #144

So then you don’t follow the biblical model of when life begins and ends? If you admit that, then what other biblical models are OK to ignore in your opinion?


(Interested Friend) #145

I’m in full agreement with Dr Ted Hamilton about the abortion issue in Adventism. May his tribe increase.

His remarks I find refreshing as contrasted to those made by so many (males often) who wish to be the conscience for a woman.


(Interested Friend) #146

Cassie and Nic should not be allowed to dominate this conversation.


(Cfowler) #148

How are they dominating? Everyone else can comment, if they so please. If others feel strongly, or have rebuttals to contribute to the conversation, they certainly can do so.

As I said, everyone has the freedom to comment on the topic, as much as Nic and Cassie have been doing.

What’s the problem?


#149

You sure you want to sign off now? Paulson is over on F7 stating that Christ could’ve sat at the right hand of God in the 1st or 2nd apartment before or after 1844 and the veil of separation must still be there in the heavenly version of the temple cuz Ellen saw it in a vision. Whew what a word pretzel he makes of the actual inspired prophets!


(George Tichy) #150

When I came to the US I learned that there is a 1st ammendment in the Constitution. Anyone can participate freely here. This is not Fulcrum7 or Advindicate.

Therefore, Go Cassie @Cassie and Nic @nic1!


(George Tichy) #151

HaHa, Cass… please… you can’t fool the old dogs here. Four weeks? Sure!! This sounds like a “Trumpian promise”… :wink: :innocent:


(George Tichy) #152

Sometimes people spend too much time on some other NKT (North Korea Type) sites so when they land here they need some extra time to acclimatize…, especially when they are coming back from a long vacation… :wink: :laughing:


#173

Many here need to just do what was not at all easy for me and my wife as we were raised Adventist and still are surrounded by Adventist family (even a BIL pastor) and friends. We did not want to leave. IT IS HARD. But it is biblically and intellectually honest. Come out of her.


#174

2018 LLUH graduation ceremonies where “Bud” Feldkamp, former (?) owner in Family Planning Associates ( Edward Allred’s abortion clinic chain) and whose wife is on the children’s hospital board was given DISTINGUISHED HUMANITARIAN AWARD.
You just can’t make this stuff up.


(Cfowler) #175

Personally and through their businesses, Hospitality
Dental and Glen Helen Raceway in San Bernardino, the
Feldkamps have supported a variety of organizations in
the community—including the San Bernardino County
Museum and the Children’s Fund. They have also helped
to further the teaching and healing ministry of Jesus Christ
through their consistent and growing support of Loma Linda
University Health (LLUH) for more than thirty-five years.

Personally and through their businesses, Hospitality
Dental and Glen Helen Raceway in San Bernardino, the
Feldkamps have supported a variety of organizations in
the community—including the San Bernardino County
Museum and the Children’s Fund. They have also helped
to further the teaching and healing ministry of Jesus Christ
through their consistent and growing support of Loma Linda
University Health (LLUH) for more than thirty-five years.

GULP!!!

Of course, no mention of owning the nations largest abortion business. I’ve not seen it mentioned in any of the blurbs about him from LLU. Same with Allred.

Nope…can’t make this up. It’s like a very dark comedy, but not at all funny.


(Website Editor) closed #179

This article is closed to comments.