The Adventist Bioethics Consortium (Day 2)


(Website Editor) #10

Hi Nic,

We no longer have the one comment rule. Here’s an article about the change:

https://spectrummagazine.org/article/2018/03/15/commenting-policy-update-spectrum

Thanks for being part of the conversation.

-WebEd


(Barry Casey) #11

The speakers at the conference looked on abortion as a last resort. Adventist hospitals do not do abortions on demand—which would be the primary for-profit reason. They do them only for the reasons given in the article. To give you an example of how few abortions are performed for these reasons, one of the speakers from an Adventist hospital in the Midwest said that in one year they brought 35,000 babies into the world while 24 abortions were performed. Of those 24 most of them were still-born, born without a complete brain, or had other severe disorders which would kill them within minutes or hours of being born. There is no profit motive here and the number of abortions performed is far less than imagined by those who are quick to criticize without knowing how strictly Adventist hospitals work within their guidelines.


#12

My question as well, Nic.

(Whether nonprofit organizations make a “profit” is another discussion.)


(Nic Samojluk) #13

Perhaps this is true today, but it is not true about the past history of many Adventist hospitals. A friend of mine has documented evidence that just two of our hospitals in Maryland were responsible for at least 15,000 preborn killings.

BTW, are you aware that the Guidelines on Abortion were designed precisely to allow elective abortions for the sake of profit. You might be interested in reading what George Gainer documented for posterity on how this started back in 1970.

The State of Hawaii legalized elective abortions, and the non Adventist physicians at our Castle Memorial Hospital demanded the right to offer elective abortions to their patients and threatened to take their patients elsewhere if they were denied this right.

The leaders of the church panicked. The fear of the Lord went out the window, and Neal Wilson publicly declared that “the church was leaning towards abortion because there were too many people in the world and too much hunger.”

Those guidelines were designed to please both prolifers and pro abortionists. They allow for exceptions for rape, incest, malformation, and mental health.

The result was elective abortions on demand. The rapist was allowed to live but the innocent preborn was executed without mercy by either poison or dismemberment at the whim of a mentally disturbed and depressed woman.

The mental exception was the opened door for abortions on demand. A woman faced with an unwanted pregnancy says: “I am depressed, I cannot sleep nor concentrate on my studies and my work, and bingo: another victim of abortion lost its right to life.”


(Nic Samojluk) #14

This may be true about some cases, but it is not true about many others. Are you saying that if a physician thinks that his patient will probably die soon, it is his right to kill him/her? This is rather scary.

Is this what the Bible teaches? The number of erroneous prognosis by physicians is rather large to ignore. Only God knows the future with perfect accuracy. Human are fallible and unable to predict the future. This is why God gave us the Sixth commandment: “You shall not murder.”


#15

Certainly, Nic, the history of abortion in the Seventh-day Adventist Church has cancelled out, by default, its organizing principle, The Great Controversy Theme, and with it, any potential attraction for devout Roman Catholics, as well as a large population of other Christians that Adventists hope to influence with their pivotal Three Angels’ Messages.

If people heed the call, “Come out of her, My People, that you be not a partaker of her sins!” where, exactly, do we expect them to go?

This is hardly trivial. What is left of Adventism after Neal Wilson “leaned” towards abortion for population control decades ago? Fumes, I would say. How long can a prophetic movement run on fumes? God alone knows.

The “hard cases” are such tender, tender issues, best handled by tender hearts lying flat in the dirt in humility before God. Who is sufficient for these things?

What is deeply at issue here, I believe, is our near-total loss of a sense of the Sacred. I pray God we can learn from our Catholic brothers and sisters of these matters, if we cannot learn from our Adventist Pioneers, or our own hearts.

The mystery of God’s Revelation is hidden inside, and in each if us in a different, unique way.

But each is like a baby in the womb, yet unborn and unrecognized and unloved.

Like Jacob waking from his long dream, we say, “Truly God was in this place and I never knew it. This is awe-inspiring, this is the house of God, this is the gate of heaven.” (Genesis 28)

Paul speaks of it as “a hidden wisdom…a wisdom that none of the masters of this age have ever known, or if they had know, they would not have killed the Human One. (I Corinthians 2)

So Jesus became the Human One who believed the divine image in himself, who trusted it, followed it and told us to do the same.

We must not kill or deny the partial, incipient image within us, but like Mary allow it to be born, even if in a stable.

We do not recognize ourselves, just as we did not recognize him.
—I John 3:1

I saw the Spirit descend…but I did not recognize him.
John 1:32

—Fr. Richard Rohr

We, in our self-hatred, are obliterating the image of God from the face of the earth, imagining that violent killing serves God.

May God have mercy on us all.


Evil: Ancient and Modern
Why We Will Aways Have Segregated Conferences
(Nic Samojluk) #16

Cassie,

I praise the Lord for your wise and inspiring comments.

Have a blessed Sabbath!


#17

And you also, dear Nic!

I praise God for the prophetic voice you have been in Adventism all these years in the face of ridicule and exclusion. Thank you, Nic. I know it’s been a seemingly hopeless task God has assigned you, but you have stayed the course.

I also praise God for our one-pointed, courageous, sometimes brash and over-the-line young brother, Andrew Michel, who may be the the cause of many annoying phone calls to headquarters. He also is a prophetic voice in Adventism, I believe.

We walk by faith. Amen.


(Nic Samojluk) #18

May the good Lord reward you for your kind words!


#19

Thank you, Nic. :hugs:

I just picked up the biography of Andrew Michell this morning to read. I opened it at random, as I often do with books, and saw that he was in solitary confinement for two years in prison.

This is literally torture, and is cruel and unusual punishment.

Being tortured gives one an unusual sensitivity to the plight of other tortured beings, don’t you think?

That is, if it doesn’t completely destroy one psychologically.


#20

Torture:

If solitary confinement is torture, are there any adequate words to describe dismembering sentient unborn babies?

Atrocity comes to mind.

@nic1

PS: Nic, you have corresponded with my son, but I don’t want to “out” him as having such a weird mom, hence my handle, Cassandra of Perelandra, or Cassie.

The mythical Cassandra warned of the Trojan Horse.

Abortion is just one of the Trojan Horses destroying Adventism from within, in my opinion.

Beware of Greeks bearing gifts!


(Nic Samojluk) #21

In spite of this, Andrew told me that those years in solitary confinement were the best of his life because it was there he found his Savior.

Someone gave him a copy of the Bible and he read it non-stop from morning till evening. Here is a link to the incredible story of his conversion:

“Convicted: the amazing conversion story of Andrew Michelle”
Link: https://youtu.be/E3JvJk-8js4

Dear Moderator: I hope I am not breaking any rule by including this link. It is someone else’s story!


#22
Behold, I have refined thee, but not with silver; I have chosen thee in the furnace of affliction.

For mine own sake, even for mine own sake, will I do it: for how should my name be polluted? and I will not give my glory unto another.

—Isaiah 48

It’s totally okay to post links, Nic—you’re good. I will watch the video you posted—thanks. Currently reading Melanie’s biography of Andrew.

I hope Andrew will be careful to stay on message and avoid getting into personalities, and triumphalism.

Regardless of who the messengers are, this is just one of several issues that will sink this church beyond all doubt, in my opinion.

This is going to be very painful to remedy. The babies can’t be brought back, and the crushing moral weight of these acts can only be offloaded by abject repentance. Adventism could never be the same afterward. Maybe that’s what it will take.


#24

Andrew, I appreciate you, brother, but I think you need to pray about where you were coming from in this video. I can’t feel that this is God’s way of dealing with people:

I hope you will feel led to apologize and take this video down, but that is between you and God.

Just speak your truth, let your yea be yea, and your nay be nay, whether they will hear, or whether they will forbear.

But when I speak with thee, I will open thy mouth, and thou shalt say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; He that heareth, let him hear; and he that forbeareth, let him forbear: for they are a rebellious house.

—Ezekiel

Thank you for considering. Praying for you.


Why We Will Aways Have Segregated Conferences
(Nic Samojluk) #25

Cassie,

I was advised by the moderator to use the private messenger method of communication when responding to the same individual, and I thought that I had complied with said request, but I see that my response appeared again in the public forum.

Dear Moderator,

Where is the private messenger device hidden. Sorry, My question mark is not working!


#26

Nic, the old laws have been done away with, it’s now more “in the spirit”. I know that’s a foreign concept here :wink:


(Sam Matthews) #27

I’ve tended toward being pro-life because all deserve an equal chance at life. I’m puzzled by this passage in the article:

  • Landless began with an aside to Ted Hamilton, “Those calls that you get once a month, Ted—I get them every day!” He spoke about the anger that is directed his way by church members who do not understand why the Adventist church provides abortions. -

If I’m reading this correctly, I’m obligated to ask Dr. Landless, “Why does the Adventist Church provide abortions?”

This appears to be an absolutely ground breaking admission! After years of saying that it is the hospitals, separate and apart from the church, Landless is admitting that the church itself - the Seventh-day Adventist denomination - provides abortions.

I’ve never heard of another Church that provides abortions of any faith. Here they are talking about the church itself - part of this “body of believers” as some may call it.

As a tithe-paying member of the “remnant church” which is apparently very pro-women when it comes to the right to choose and equally dismissive of the LGBTQ community, to know what exactly is going on and why. Some transparency is in order.


#28

You might ask @nic1 as he probably has covered that area. Also search youtube for Prolife Andrew. He has some insight on the issue as well.


#29

BEWARE OF GREEKS BEARING GIFTS THAT LEAVE CHILDREN DEAD AND ADVENTISM WITH NO ESCHATOLOGY!


Thank you Nic and Andrew. God bless you forever! :heart: :hugs:

Andrew, I stayed up and finished Melanie’s book about you, Amazon.com: CONVICTED, last night. Amazing story! :hugs:


@sdaequalitynow1

GOD HELP THE ADVENTISTS!

Beware of Greeks bearing gifts that leave children dead and Adventism with no eschatology…

image

Cassandra of Perelandra


(Sam Matthews) #30

Wow! Has any of this been factually refuted?