The Adventist Church is Led by Old White Men


(Allen Shepherd) #182

That I you for confirming that you can see as valid no other view but your own…


#183

And heaven weeps because you cannot see that all are equal and Gifts given by God are by his discretion not mans. :sob:


(Kim Green) #184

"That I you for confirming that you can see as valid no other view but your own…"

This is rich coming from you, Allen. Go back and read some of your past postings…


(Kim Green) #185

There would be few of us here that would see Allen as an “unbiased” source…lol


#186

This is the issue. Who is mere man to insert himself between anyone given spiritual gifts for HIS reasons and purposes? Who wants to answer before God at judgment as to why those gifts were not “allowed” to be affirmed, authorized, and empowered for service?

That is the definition of fear and trembling.

“Oh, but Lord. We thought You had strict roles only for women even though they had prepared their gifts to serve as pastors. We sent them away. You gave them these gifts to actually use as ministers? That role? All over the earth? That was You?”


(George Tichy) #187

Probably their last words before being welcomed into that “hot place”… :open_mouth:


(Thomas J Zwemer) #188

Senior but not necessarily old. But the vetting is biased in most cases—Politics not necessarily experience and preparation. Recently the church has seen women as university presidents. Men of the cloth have the edge. The Southern California Conference has the first woman eligible fo consideration and she is not one to be called young. But Ted has done his best to keep her under the radar.


(Dan) #189

With all due respect, you should definitely leave the ideology, racist card out of the the spiritual/church realm. Read the Bible and dicern it. There is no need to bring a cultural battle into it. I respect but cannot understand, for the life of me why people keep pushing the women ordination, color issue this much. We are all, the “BIBLE SAYS IT”, one in Christ. There’s no color or age or class. When people like you start paying more attention to the spiritual side of things rather than the misguided ideology issue which will only fragment the church, we will see real progress. We do not, and should not carve into the cultural issue of our time which have only caused division. The church doesn’t have nor should adapt to your opinion or liking. You should adapt to the spiritual order of the church. Read the Bible and when there is a real issue like apostacy, violation of God’s principles and laws, you can then point them out. But this, sounds more like a complain based on the human nature/inclination rather than a Godly opinion.


(Kim Green) #190

Dan…who are you responding to? Is it the author of the article??


(Dan) #191

Yes I am. I do hope not to sound rude or radical. Truth is, we can’t allow ourselves to be sucked into this type of arguments (2 Tim 2:16). God does not change. Why, why do we have to add to the word of God? Have we not learned enough from inserting our thoughts into the silence of God? Our thoughts are not his thoughts nor our ways his ways. I do not mean any harm nor want to sound rude. But there’s a degree of worry on my part when I see people mixing the spiritual aspect with the worldly things. I do not wish to, but humbly challenge anyone to give me an example of women ever being appointed as pastors in either Old or New Testament. I firmly believe that women can serve God in probably more efficient ways without having to appoint them as pastors. The very meaning of the word implies this is a man role (it has nothing to do with patriarchy or discrimination). We are equal in the eyes of our creator but we have different roles. For example why can’t a man become pregnant? Isn’t’ he equal to a woman? The answer is simple, men and woman have different roles. Why do we or, should I say people have to insert the worldly concept of feminism, discrimination as an excuse to corner leaders into carving into this worldly view? The church has been dealing with this for almost a century now. There have been multiple studies on the issue, all which have come to the same conclusion, there is no support from scripture for this, yet people keep insisting on it. That alone says me a lot. We should stick to the scriptures, not our feelings which most of the times are contrary to the will of God (Rom 7:15).


(George Tichy) #192

Because the real issue behind the symptom is actually discrimination.
What I cannot understand is how can people who call themselves Christians support discrimination of women. Puzzling!


(George Tichy) #193

Well, this is what Adventists do, isn’t? Some 100,000 pages added to the Bible!
Why? Well, because this is what Adventists do!.. :wink:


#194

Dan, thank you for your comments and challenge.

The trouble with your challenge is that it assumes all spiritual gifts granted by the Holy Spirit are to Males by default. Spiritual gifts are never defined or described as gender exclusive to begin with. Where does the idea of gender qualification come from regarding spiritual gifts as it not described anywhere in the Bible. As a result you won’t find any working examples of such assignments and before you declare that as a result we should only recognize males you need to step back and ask yourself ‘where did the idea that spiritual gifts are male only come from’? The Bible doesn’t say that anywhere in fact it is clear from scripture that the Holy Spirit chooses whoever He wants and never mentions gender qualification or sub-classes when you read about this in the Bible. So if it not from the Bible then where is from?

You may say, ‘well from 2 Tim 2:16 of course!’, really, is that what this says? Does it say that the Holy Spirits granting of Spiritual gifts has gender qualified? No, it does not and you can’t rip a verse of scripture out of it context and put it together with something completely different and say they connect. That verse is not about Spiritual gifts so it follows that it is talking about something completely different. The only other thing you can conclude is that if God didn’t say He excludes females then a human must have. As a result it must be a human tradition that was started and excludes females and over time for some reason got stuck to it. So you have to then ask yourself ‘if God doesn’t say gifts have gender qualifications then why do I think the way I do about this’?

The core issue is who grants spiritual gifts is it from humans or the Holy Spirit?
As we know this is the Holy Spirit and He chooses whom He sees fit and not according to human traditions. So who are we to declare something that God has not?

It would be good to note that Adventist women ministers had been receiving ministerial licenses for over 100 years, since at least the year 1870 (and within seven years of the founding of the denomination).

Since, by 1881, women ministers had been holding ministerial licenses for over a decade with successful ministries but had not been ordained (and therefore were unable to conduct baptisms and other ordinances), the following General Conference session resolutions are not surprising:

  1. “RESOLVED, That all candidates for license and ordination should be examined with reference to their intellectual and spiritual fitness for the successful discharge of the duties which will devolve upon them as licentiates and ordained ministers.

  2. RESOLVED, That females possessing the necessary qualifications to fill that position, may, with perfect propriety, be set apart by ordination to the work of the Christian ministry” ( Review and Herald , December 20, 1881, page 392).

You should check out the ‘Working Policy of the General Conference of Seventh Day Adventists’ where you will find no prohibition of women in pastoral service.


(Tim Teichman) #195

I don’t think the intention is to be racist. “Old white men” is a stand-in for “good old boy’s club”, which would have been a better title.

The good old boys in general are seen as being from the last generation (or the one before that) and not in touch with the realities of whoever they represent. They don’t actually have to be white of course, but in America they generally were in past generations and tend to continue to be. They’re whoever the old guard is wherever you are.

However, even if the criticism by the author really was directed to actual old white men, which do seem to dominate the GC, noting that the church is led by a group that is not representative of the church body either by culture or gender simply suggests that there is an imbalance, not that the individuals in that group are defective or sub-standard. It is not prejudicial.

At least in America, this is a general complaint within many organizations, where we’ve been pushing for decades for representation that has experiences across the range of those being represented. For example, in recent times there was a governmental committee of senators of perhaps 30 members that met in Washington DC to consider women’s rights. It was roundly criticized because it consisted entirely of men. Almost all old men near retirement age from another era. That ctiticism isn’t discriminatory, but instead questions the committee’s competence to address the subject at hand.

Similarly for the church, which is majority female and from cultures other than the west. If it is led primarily by individuals that have the diametrically different experience of being male and western, the fear (based on experience) is that such a group will not understand or correctly represent the needs of those they represent. That concern is not ideological or racist, but instead seeks to prevent such ideas from becoming established because of an imbalance in representation.

We don’t ''have to". We should want to.

There were no pastors at all in the old testament. Jews do not have pastors. In any case the absence of something in the bible is not an indication that it is prohibited.

As a church we have women pastors already. Thousands of them. That is not a point of contention at the denominational level, although it sounds like you disagree with the GC on this point. Perhaps you should turn yourself into one of the new compliance committees for being out of step with the GC.

Instead, the point of contention is ordination. Ordination has no real meaning. It only matters because the church makes it matter by restricting certain pastoral activities and advancement within the organization to ordained pastors. Ordination of a pastor is not required biblically. It is Catholic. That’s just fine with me, but because it is purely an organizational choice, a human construct invented to give status and not instructed in the bible, appealing to the bible to support the exclusive ordination of men is fallacious.


(Dan) #196

Because the real issue behind the symptom is actually discrimination.

The real issue is not discrimination. It is simply the card or excuse that people use to press leaders into carving into the cultural war, which as I said, should stay outside of the church. If you or anyone else can show with scripture alone that this is Bible based, then by all means go ahead mean while I will wait for your example from the Bible that would set a precedent for this dangerous path. By the way, you should learn what the word Pastor mean and in what context it was used.

What I cannot understand is how can people who call themselves Christians support discrimination of women. Puzzling!

Again, if you ca find an example in the Bible than I’m all ears. We are equal in the eyes of God, but we have different roles or functions. Hence the reason why males cannot have children. Can you please remind me where the discrimination card comes from? Oh, I know, progressive politics and since it is politics, it has no room in the church of God.


(Dan) #197

@ David 1

The trouble with your challenge is that it assumes all spiritual gifts granted by the Holy Spirit are to Males by default.

Not at all. I have already said that women can be used in probably more efficient ways then ordaining them as pastor (a role which the Bible proves has only been dedicated to men) It’s not like EGW is not an example of how women can be used by God.

Spiritual gifts are never defined or described as gender exclusive to begin with.

Never said they were. But then again, show me a Bible example of a woman being appointed as a pastor. The word pastor in it’s contexts leaves no doubt the role was appointed to men…God established an order and we are not to question or change it.

Where does the idea of gender qualification come from regarding spiritual gifts as it not described anywhere in the Bible

You are assuming I said that which I did not. Simply said that the role of pastor was dedicated to man alone and the context of the word proves that by itself.

As a result you won’t find any working examples of such assignments and before you declare that as a result we should only recognize males you need to step back and ask yourself ‘where did the idea that spiritual gifts are male only come from’?

Circular reasoning? I never said that we can only recognized males. But we have plenty of examples in the Bible where God could have chosen a women yet he didn’t. Adam and Eve, Aaron, Moses and Mirian, Mary Magdalene, 1 Cor 11:3; Efe 5:23.

You may say, ‘well from 2 Tim 2:16 of course!’, really, is that what this says? Does it say that the Holy Spirits granting of Spiritual gifts has gender qualified? No, it does not and you can’t rip a verse of scripture out of it context and put it together with something completely different and say they connect. That verse is not about Spiritual gifts so it follows that it is talking about something completely different. The only other thing you can conclude is that if God didn’t say He excludes females then a human must have. As a result it must be a human tradition that was started and excludes females and over time for some reason got stuck to it. So you have to then ask yourself ‘if God doesn’t say gifts have gender qualifications then why do I think the way I do about this’?

The core issue is who grants spiritual gifts is it from humans or the Holy Spirit?
As we know this is the Holy Spirit and He chooses whom He sees fit and not according to human traditions. So who are we to declare something that God has not?

Not that i said that this text has specifically anything to do and only with spiritual gifts but then again, show me one example where the Holy Spirit appointed a woman as a pastor. You accuse me of making assumption on the gender qualification, which I have not. Wouldn’t it be too much to assume that God has somehow told you and many other that it is ok to appoint a woman with the pastoral role? Where is the evidence?

It would be good to note that Adventist women ministers had been receiving ministerial licenses for over 100 years, since at least the year 1870 (and within seven years of the founding of the denomination).

Ellen G White did receive credential but if you really know the story never was she assigned nor accepted the pastoral role.

You should check out the ‘Working Policy of the General Conference of Seventh Day Adventists’ where you will find no prohibition of women in pastoral service.

Change for which there is no basis. Not in the Bible or in the Spirit of Prophecy. Any support to this is not based on the Bible but rather in human feelings. I’m sure you know that since there is no evidence in the Bible, supporting this view is mostly based on assumption and not on Bible support and we or at least I hope you know what The Lord says about adding to his word. It is better to obey God rather than men brother.


(Dan) #198

@timteichman)

the fear (based on experience) is that such a group will not understand or correctly represent the needs of those they represent.

I do not believe that changes should be made based on assumptions (fear of the outcome).

There were no pastors at all in the old testament. Jews do not have pastors. In any case the absence of something in the bible is not an indication that it is prohibited.

I agree and disagree. The pastoral role is the representation of priesthood. We do not have example from the Old or New Testament.

Taking the use of the word pastor/ Shepherd and applying to the role in its context and what Jesus meant by it we can ask ourselves the following.

Was David a pastor/shepherd? Yes
Why wasn’t his sister a pastor/shepherd?
Why do we not have examples in the Bible of woman having the role of pastor/shepherd or eve being appointed as pastor of the church or priesthood?

See this is what gets to me, if all the examples in the Bible appoint a man to the role of pastor, shepherd, priesthood or head and there is no evidence whatsoever of a woman ever being ever/even considered for the role why do we now have to insert or even impose it?

Here’s the better question, is God a mysoginist?


(Tim Teichman) #199

The church expressly disagrees with you. We do not have a priesthood either in the old testament sense or the Catholic sense.

So? The church has thousands of women pastors. Are you objecting to them? Are you calling for some action of the church to change this practice? Perhaps fire them so all remaining pastors are men? If so, it sees like you’re out of compliance with church policy and practices.


(George Tichy) #200

Discrimination is a matter of human decency. It may end up being politicized, or even infiltrated in a church. It does not matter where, it is just a matter of human decency - morality! Discrimination is an immoral behavior, and as such, it should never be present in a church on in a Christian’s mind.


(George Tichy) #201

Oh my, here we go starting it all over again! How many times we will have to put the same comments on the table over and over again?

Instead of coming here one at the time, why can’t those discriminators come all together at once so that we can just discuss the issue once and move on with something more productive than having to fight their baseless defense of discrimination of women? Getting tired of it!