The Adventist Church is Led by Old White Men


(Tim Teichman) #202

Sigh. This time perhaps a little different as @Drdanes is objecting to women as pastors. Not ordained pastors, but pastors in general. That’s in direct opposition to church policy.


(Dan) #203

I am in direct opposition of a woman being pastor for it is against the Bible principle. As to how we resolve the issue we have at hand it is not my place in my opinion. But I do not agree with the practice. I firmly believe that we would not be here if the counsel in the 80’s would not have given into appointing women as elders. Do you even know how we got here? All the committees that have taken place in order to get us here? I would recommend doing a research on all of then and what the conclusion has been. The decision was more to apiece a group of people rather a Bible supported decision. There is not support from the Bible and in my opinion it should rest there. There is not one argument presented to support this view other than the human inclination to do it. I should make it clear that though this has been happening since a long time ago, I do not agree with it And by the way I do not mean any negative impact on anyone or the church. We should not compromise truth for the sake of unity.


(Dan) #204

@ GeorgeTichy

Because the real issue behind the symptom is actually discrimination.

Wrong. That’s you want people to believe. The Bible does not support it. Period. Is God a mysoginist?

What I cannot understand is how can people who call themselves Christians support discrimination of women. Puzzling!

I recommend you leave the progressive political view out in the world and do not bring this to the church. To Cesar what is Cesar’s to God what’s God’s.

Well, this is what Adventists do, isn’t? Some 100,000 pages added to the Bible!
Why? Well, because this is what Adventists do!.. :wink:

Really? Sarcasm? My Bible has 66 books and no more. Are you referring to the EGW writings? Perhaps you should investigate a little more before trolling about a false statement? We Adventist do not put the EGW writings above the Bible nor did she ever claimed that.

Discrimination is a matter of human decency. It may end up being politicized, or even infiltrated in a church. It does not matter where, it is just a matter of human decency - morality! Discrimination is an immoral behavior, and as such, it should never be present in a church on in a Christian’s mind.

Again, this is not a matter of discrimination. If that was true then there would not be any women in position of leadership which we have plenty, PLENTY.


(Dan) #205

As a church we have women pastors already. Thousands of them. That is not a point of contention at the denominational level, although it sounds like you disagree with the GC on this point. Perhaps you should turn yourself into one of the new compliance committees for being out of step with the GC.

I know we have plenty of women as pastor I simply don’t agree with the practice. My Bible based opinion is that this role was never intended for a women in the same way man was never created to have children. Just because we practice something, it does not make ok or correct. And this is one of those cases.


(Tim Teichman) #206

That is an apostate position. The worldwide church officially fully supports women as commissioned pastors and teaches that it is a correct practice. As did Ellen White. She wrote statements in direct opposition to your position, which as an apparent conservative apologist I would think you’d take as binding for the church (as the church seems to have accepted.)

The issue at hand does not concern women as pastors. It is not even up for discussion.

Well, there were elders in the early Christian Church, such as Phoebe, who was charged with delivering Paul’s message to the Roman churches, to preach it to them, before his arrival. Maybe that’s why.

As I’ve repeatedly pointed out, there is no support in the bible for many things we do. Lack of biblical support for something is not a meaningful argument. There’s no new testament biblical example of singing in church. Or of ordination into the ministry. Or the Trinity, which was mandated as doctrine by the Roman Catholic Church in the fifth century after hundreds of years of debate, revised significantly at least once, and yet not finally accepted until the seventh century - even among some church leaders, who continued to promote other models of God as they had since the beginning of Christianity.


(Dan) #207

That is an apostate position. The worldwide church officially fully supports women as commissioned pastors and teaches that it is a correct practice. As did Ellen White. She wrote statements in direct opposition to your position, which as an apparent conservative apologist I would think you’d take as binding for the church (as the church seems to have accepted.)

Please point me to any Bible example or any writing from Elle G White that specifically sais that a women can be ordain as a pastor.

You say it is an apostate position on the mere base that the church allows it. I again challenge you or any one to prove me with the Bible or any of the EGW writing where there is evidence for this. Not the mere human desire to do it. Just because the church practices it does not make it ok.

Well, there were elders in the early Christian Church, such as Phoebe, who was charged with delivering Paul’s message to the Roman churches, to preach it to them, before his arrival. Maybe that’s why.

Really? We are now going to use the elder (as in age) to apply as a position of leadership?

There’s no new testament biblical example of singing in church.
Really? The hymn that Jesus song during what it is now called the last supper? Let alone Pslams it’s all about singing to praise the lord. You should not be making separation of the Old and New Testament. the word of God is one, not two.

Or of ordination into the ministry
Really? You’re not familiar with the process in Acts 6:1-7? This is the equivalent of ordination dear brother. Contrary to the women ordination issue there’s plenty of evidence for the trinity concept or teaching. A huge difference. The issue with the trinity is as old as the second century. BU the Bible supports that from the days of Moses this concept was understood. In fact you can find evidence since Genesis.

While you are correct that some names ( specifically the Trinity) do not appear in the Bible, the fact is that the concept is there as oppose to the women ordination issue. There is not name, evidence or concept from the Bible. How about the rapture? is the name in the Bible? No. But is the teaching there? Absolutely yes. That is the big difference with the women ordination. There’s not support, evidence or name. Now you seem to be sincerely convince that this is ok. I don’t and strongly believe that the basis for this is unbiblical but I respect your opinion. As Paul once said, let everyone be persuaded in their own mind. I will leave you this quote for you to considered:

Eve was created from a rib taken from the side of Adam, signifying that she was not to control him as the head DG 22.3

There is an order in the Church of God: God, Christ, man and woman It has nothing to do with discrimination for if it did then God is a mysoginist and therefore nothing in the Bible can be used. God bless you!!


(Tim Teichman) #208

I never said that existed. Why are you asking for it?

Yes, but not that the church allows it, that it teaches it is correct as did Ellen white.

I challenge you to prove with the bible that it is not allowed. Where does it say women cannot be pastors and cannot be ordained?

Well, Ellen never stated that women could be ordained as pastors. This in no small part is because in the early church, regular church pastors were not ordained. Men were ordained as pastors who traveled and sold books, but not church pastors, who were commissioned:

“Early Seventh-day Adventists ordained only the ministers among them who had given evidence that they were good evangelists or itinerant preachers. Ordination was a recognition of their gifts and that the church authorized them to be spokesmen for the truth. Those who were not itinerant preachers were not ordained even if they served the church in some capacity.” - Theology of Ordination Study Committee. - Ellen White, Women in Ministry

Ellen commented that ordination “is not any of God’s arrangements; it is man’s fixing.” - “Remarks Concerning the Foreign Mission Work,” Manuscript 75, 1896


Since you asked, here are statements from Ellen regarding women as pastors, which you have stated you don’t think we should have. She disagrees:

“There are women who should labor in the gospel ministry.” - The Laborer Is Worthy of His Hire,” Manuscript 43a, 1898, in Manuscript Releases, 5:324-327

“It is not always men who are best adapted to the successful management of a church. If faithful women have more deep piety and true devotion than men, they could indeed by their prayers and their labors do more than men who are unconsecrated in heart and in life.” -Ellen G. White to Brother Johnson, n.d. (Letter 33), 1879, in Manuscript Releases, 19:56

“All who desire an opportunity for true ministry, and who will give themselves unreservedly to God, will find in the canvassing work opportunities to speak upon many things pertaining to the future, immortal life. The experience thus gained will be of the greatest value to those who are fitting themselves for the ministry. It is the accompaniment of the Holy Spirit of God that prepares workers, both men and women, to become pastors to the flock of God.” - Testimonies for the Church, 6:322

“The number of women of whom honorable mention is made for their labors in the gospel is not small. Now, in view of these facts, how can any man in this age of Bibles say that the Bible does not notice women, or give them a place in the work of God? The Lord chooses his own workers, and he does not judge as man judges. Man looks at the appearance; God judges the heart, and he never makes mistakes.” - J. N. Andrews, “Women in the Bible,” Signs of the Times, October 30, 1879, p. 324.

“If there is one work more important than another, it is that of getting our publications before the public, thus leading them to search the Scriptures. Missionary work—introducing our publications into families, conversing, and praying with and for them—is a good work and one which will educate men and women to do pastoral labor.” - Testimonies for the Church, 4:390

"Young men and young women who should be engaged in the ministry, in Bible work, and in the canvassing work should not be bound down to mechanical employment. Some will be trained to enter the field as missionary nurses, some as canvassers, and some as gospel ministers. - Testimonies for the Church, 8:229-230

"Women, as well as men, are needed in the work that must be done. Those women who give themselves to the service of the Lord, who labor for the salvation of others by doing house-to-house work, which is as taxing as, and more taxing than standing before a congregation, should receive payment for their labor. If a man is worthy of his hire, so also is a woman. The tithe should go to those who labor in word and doctrine, be they men or women. - All Kinds of Workers Needed,” Manuscript 149, 1899, in Manuscript Releases, 18:66-67

Church Ordination is not required. One can be ordained directly by God and that is enough:
“In the city of Portland, the Lord ordained me as His messenger, and here my first labors were given to the cause of present truth.” - Ellen G. White to “Dear Brethren and Sisters,” October 19 (Letter 138), 1909

“Those who stand as leaders in the church of God are to realize that the Saviour’s commission is given to all who believe in His name. God will send forth into His vineyard many who have not been dedicated to the ministry by the laying on of hands.” - The Acts of the Apostles, 110

And from James White:
“Paul places men and women side by side in the position and work of teaching and praying in the church of Christ.” - James White, “Women in the Church,” Review and Herald, May 29, 1879, p. 172.

And there’s this:
“Ellen White particularly encourages young people to prepare themselves for ministry. Although she may have been aware that there would be limitations to what young women could do or be employed for by the church, she did not limit the options available to them. If somehow Ellen White believed that the concept of male headship restricts the ministry positions available for women, she had plenty of opportunities to clarify her thought. She never did. Instead, her encouragements to young women are consistently open-ended and inclusive…” - Theology of Ordination Study Committee. - Ellen White, Women in Ministry


(Tim Teichman) #209

No. I mean elder as in the position of elder. I should have used the word minister, now that I look up the text.

I also should have mentioned Prisca who with her husband Paul gave “all the churches of the Gentiles”. Quite a leadership role.

And also Julia, who was an apostle prominent among the other apostles in a time when an apostle was the most respected position in the church, so important that it led to the church’s teachings of Apostolic Succession.


"I commend to you our sister Phoebe, a minister [or deacon] of the church at Cenchreae, so that you may welcome her in the Lord as is fitting for the saints, and help her in whatever she may require from you, for she has been a benefactor of many and of myself as well.

"Greet Prisca and Aquila, who work with me in Christ Jesus, and who risked their necks for my life, to whom not only I give thanks, but also all the churches of the Gentiles. Greet also the church in their house.

"Greet my beloved Epaenetus, who was the first convert in Asia for Christ.

"Greet Mary, who has worked very hard among you.

“Greet Andronicus and Julia [or Junia], my relatives who were in prison with me; they are prominent among the apostles, and they were in Christ before I was.” - Romans 16:1 - 7


(Kim Green) #210

You have some good points, Dan, and you are definitely haven’t been rude. :slight_smile:

The fact is that the church’s theologians have never been in total agreement that the Bible forbids the ordination of women. And many of us do see that non-ordination of women is discriminatory and against what we see the Bible teaches. This is where many other denominations have gone into schism…and where Adventism finds itself as well.


(Dan) #211

Brother Tim,

Sorry if I believed you said that any examples existed. I must’ve misunderstood or got your reply mixed up with another.

but not that the church allows it, that it teaches it is correct as did Ellen white.

Ellen White never said that is was correct or ok to ordain women as pastor. She did mention of separating or commissioning women for the service of preaching. I’m not disputing that women can serve the Lord. This is not even a discussion.

I challenge you to prove with the bible that it is not allowed. Where does it say women cannot be pastors and cannot be ordained?

From creation, to the N.T we see women serve God BUT:

*The sin was counted onto Adam even though he was not the first to commit sin.

*Mirian was not appointed as priest, Aaron was.

*Not one women was ever appointed as high priest to serve in the temple.

*Jesus chose 12 male Apostle eventhough he was surrounded by devoted women, etc

The examples are there and I don’t think it’s appropriate for us to change that.

I am very familiar with most of the quotes from EGW you posted. However, they do not in any way set a precedent for appointing women as pastors. See below:

“There are women who should labor in the gospel ministry.” - The Laborer Is Worthy of His Hire,” Manuscript 43a, 1898, in Manuscript Releases, 5:324-327

No one disputes that women can or can’t labor in the gospel (at least not that I know of). This does not meant being appointed as pastors. Recommendations by EGW point more towards services, laity, dorcas:

Women who are willing to consecrate some of their time to the service of the Lord should be appointed to visit the sick, look after the young, and minister to the necessities of the poor. They should be set apart to this work by prayer and laying on of hands. [The article in which this statement appears is entitled “The Duty of the Minister and the People.” It is a call for involvement of the laity in the church to become active and to share the burdens of the minister. See Appendix C.] In some cases they will need to counsel with the church officers or the minister, but if they are devoted women, maintaining a vital connection with God, they will be a power for good in the church. This is another means of strengthening and building up the church. We need to branch out more in our methods of labor. Not a hand should be bound, not a soul discouraged, not a voice should be hushed; let every individual labor, privately or publicly, to help forward this grand work. Place the burdens upon men and women of the church, that they may grow by reason of the exercise, and thus become effective agents in the hand of the Lord for the enlightenment of those who sit in darkness.—The Review and Herald, July 9, 1895. DG 102.3

Please pay close attention to the recommendations in bold. Their service is not that of a pastor but to work close to the pastor.

Anyone who desires to work for the Lord should and per EGW, even though they are not ordained as pastors, they should get paid as well. But we must not confused the payment issue with being ordained as pastors. In any case brother, as I mentioned before, I respect everyone’s thoughts on this. In the end, God is in control and we should focus on more important matters. God bless you brother.


(Dan) #212

Thank you sister Kim,

I do believe that there plenty of examples in the Bible that can be follow without altering or adding to the word. I’m honestly terrified of the thought of adding a role or teaching that does not have any Bible support. There is a great misunderstanding on the ministry of woman. The Bible teaches that men and women have different roles and based on that, the pastoral/shepherd role was only occupied by men. This in no way means that women cannot have leadership positions in the church. I do not believe that following the Bible example is discriminatory in any way. This is part of my worry. Every time I hear someone mention the discrimination, race, color and age arguments makes me cringe. These are liberal, progressive, political views that have no room in the church for we are one in Christ.

God bless you sister Kim!!


(Kim Green) #213

We can agree to disagree and still have love and regard for other’s beliefs.

I think that you have voiced your concerns…but in the end, God is greater than all of our worries and concerns. He alone is sufficient. Trust in Him.

Blessings to you, also!


(Dan) #214

Feeling is mutual. Thank you and blessings.


(Tim Teichman) #215

I didn’t claim she did. You have said women shouldn’t be pastors. I have pointed out that the early church, the current church, and Ellen all disagree with you. That is all. You have not (are unwilling to?) respond to that.

She did say that ordination is not needed to be a pastor (most church pastors were not ordained in her time so that is not surprising), that requiring ordination for specific roles is a construct of men and not God, and that she was ordained directly by God.

He committed the sin. He lied to God.

Of course they do. They indicate exactly that, the most direct being, “It is the accompaniment of the Holy Spirit of God that prepares workers, both men and women, to become pastors…”


(Dan) #216

I rest my case brother. If the writings you are referring to were so clear about the issue, we would not be in the situation we are in. They only thing I’m glad about is that prophecies are being fulfilled which this rebellion in my opinion is one of them. God bless you brother. Next up, would the sabbath, then sexual orientation and who knows what else. God have mercy.


#217

Please note my previous comments and the ones below are not ‘accusations’ they are observations, logical conclusion validation analysis, and a request for clarification.

Based on analysis of your comments I understand and conclude the below:
a) unless it can be proved otherwise women are amongst other things not suitable in a pastoral role. You further back this up by saying that the Bible proves this.

b) The ‘proof’ examples provided by you are meant, I assume, to support your hypothesis of women being disqualified by the Holy Spirit for the Pastoral gift. You include examples of God’s choice of men to perform at various roles in history written in the Bible. None of the examples you use as your proof are of men being chosen as Pastors. Nor is their any implied or direct evidence in these that the Holy Spirit rejects women as appropriate candidates for this gift. Therefore one can only conclude your examples and conclusion statement is not a valid.

c) In your statements you have singled out Pastor, out of all the spiritual gifts, as being uniquely gender qualified i.e. male. Why choose that one out of them all? This is where the logical disconnect begins in your statements.

There are no statements in the Bible in context of Pastors being male only as you have hypothesized. In the examples you provided there is no visible or logical connection connection to the Spiritual Gift of Pastor.

Your statement that people are ‘adding to His word’ regarding females as Pastors is both illogical and false.

When you come to people and try to convince them of your point of view (which I welcome, I and other want to learn from each other) it is necessary to provide logical and in context connections that connect and make sense i.e. more than a simple opinion. Please show me a specific gender qualification in the Bible about the spiritual gift of Pastor?


(Denny) #218

But clearly your views on the gender neutrality of the Bible a re illogical David… This is why some who align to your views are producing gender neutral bibles where God is not refered to as He or Him or Father. How on earth do we get the guts to change what the bible teaches? Just for some cheap relevance and acceptance by society? please ask Paul and John or Silas if they considered acceptance. They were beaten jailed etc because they stood by the Word. Full stop.


(Denny) #219

I see you will twist the Bibles version of events to suit your fancy… Paul says to Timothy “the woman was decieved” and genesis clearly shows that Eve was alone with the serpent and ate the fruit and TOOOK IT TO HER HUSBAND. clear as crystal… However God asks Adam what he had done, Paul says in Romans 5 that sin came as a result of the sin of Adam (not Eve) even though Eve was the first one to interact with the serpent. It is CLEAR that Adam (men) is the priest of the home. Adam was created first as well, why not both of them at the same time???


#220

Non sequitor, comments not on topic and intended to be adversarial. i.e. not what i am talkkng about


(Denny) #221

Fancy words to avoid my position to your statement? Please educate us then on what you meant?