The Adventist Church is Led by Old White Men

(Kim Green) #222

Denny, you should know what these words mean…or learn them yourselves if you continue on this site. Otherwise you risk looking disingenuous or uninformed (if these things matter to you at all). You may be very knowledgeable where you come from but there are many smart and educated persons on this site. It is good to have some sensibility about this otherwise you come off pompous and uninformed.

(George Tichy) #223

You are certainly entitled to the right of expressing your personal opinions and views here, and I fully respect that right. I promise to never tell you that you cannot express your opinions freely on this site. I may not agree with them, but your right to share them here is guaranteed, believe me.

(George Tichy) #224

You may have a good point.
Which prophecies exactly can you list that have been (are being) fulfilled.
Is there any (and I mean “any”) of EGW’s prophecies that have been fulfilled yet?

(Tim Teichman) #225

I’m not twisting anything. I’m relaying how I read the text. I first learned the following from my Sabbath School class, and before that thought much as you do.

The key is “she was deceived”. If you are convinced something is OK, and in some abstract reality it is not, you are not guilty of a sin. You thought, were taught, that it was OK.

In any case, this is the text:
“You will not certainly die,” the serpent said to the woman. “For God knows that when you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”

The serpent actually told the truth. This is exactly what happened when they ate the fruit, and he was right about what God knew. God told them they’d die the day they ate that fruit. He got it wrong.

And then it continues:
“When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it.”

Adam was not somewhere else. He was right there with her, and it does not say he was deceived. But she was.

Adam was not deceived and he ate the fruit anyway. Then he lied to God’s face. It seems to me Eve was without blame. All she did was succumb to the very-clever serpent.


  • Was fooled by a very clever serpent - who actually told the truth.


  • Didn’t act when he could see Eve being seduced by the snake. Just stood there.
  • Was not deceived.
  • Ate the fruit.
  • Lied.

Seems quite clear to me.


Yeah, Adam seems to have failed his first headship test, right? How do the promoters of headship theology explain that? He was still in paradise, untainted by sin when he made these choices.

(Dan) #227

You may have a good point.
Which prophecies exactly can you list that have been (are being) fulfilled.

I must admit, I wasn’t going to respond to any new post. My time is very limited during the week days but since you asked, I thought I should. Below are just a few from EGW:

**The proclamation of the third angel’s message would be bound about. This in part to all the issues we are dealing with WO being one of them. The problem of WO is not a new issue.

In 1968 the question is asked from Europe about whether the ordination of women is allowed. A study was carried out with the result that there is no biblical basis.

1973 the subject arises again with the conclusion that again, there is no biblical foundation.

In 1984 a vote was taken in the general association based on a council in 1979 authorizing the ordination of women as elders to the American association. Without Biblical basis.

This vote had conditions that were not fulfilled and was adopted in some churches more by imposition than by free acceptance. The vote included a formal request to the general conference in which they would examine the issue and approve or not based on a study but the churched did away with this step and began to ordain women as elders which opened the door to the OW issue we are in right now. Per Mario Velozo who was a present delegate at the councils. And here’s the kicker, if there was no basis for this before and the word of God does not change, what is different now?:**

_Satan has devised a state of things whereby the proclamation of the third angel’s message shall be bound about. We must beware of his plans and methods. There must be no toning down of the truth, no muffling of the message for this time. The third angel’s message must be strengthened and confirmed. The eighteenth chapter of Revelation reveals the importance of presenting the truth in no measured terms but with boldness and power… There has been too much beating about the bush in the proclamation of the third angel’s message. The message has not been given as clearly and distinctly as it should have been.—Manuscript 16, 1900. Ev 230.2

Unholy music and dance (pantomime straight out from ancient Rome) and the senses of people will be confused that they cannot be trusted. I believe the WO issue is a huge part of this being the fact that most of the people in favor only resort to logic rather than scripture:

The things you have described as taking place in Indiana, the Lord has shown me would take place just before the close of probation. Every uncouth thing will be demonstrated. There will be shouting, with drums, music, and dancing. The senses of rational beings will become so confused that they cannot be trusted to make right decisions. And this is called the moving of the Holy Spirit. 2SM 36.2_

Also people calling for reform. That we need to carve into cultural warfare as if we are from the world. What’s not broken don’t need fixing besides, why does scripture need to be adapted to the belief and lifestyle of people? It should be the opposite for God does not change. Furthermore we are in a state where we are judging the church as worldly entity. Using political terms such as discrimination, race, color, age, etc.

The enemy of souls has sought to bring in the supposition that a great reformation was to take place among Seventh-day Adventists, and that this reformation would consist in giving up the doctrines which stand as the pillars of our faith, and engaging in a process of reorganization. Were this reformation to take place, what would result? The principles of truth that God in His wisdom has given to the remnant church, would be discarded. Our religion would be changed. The fundamental principles that have sustained the work for the last fifty years would be accounted as error. 1MS 204.2

A new organization might be in the rise. Hence the reason we are now talking about unity. Just look at what NAD proposed yesterday. I do not meant to judge but retaliation much? And then, there is new logical thinking philosophy that seems to me is proposing certain things that are not Bible base but according to many it’s logical:

A new organization would be established. Books of a new order would be written. A system of intellectual philosophy would be introduced. 1SM 204.2

Then the Bible says:

2 Timothy 4:3-4

[3] For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions, [4] and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander off into myths.

Is there any (and I mean “any”) of EGW’s prophecies that have been fulfilled yet?
There are, unfortunately I don’t have the time to go thru them right now. But above is the one with the music and dance coming into the church, drums as well. Anyways hope you can find this information helpful. God bless!!

(George Tichy) #228

You call this “prophecy?” Yoiu must be kidding. Or not…

You don’t have to “go thru them,” just mention them - if you can actually find any.
Or, maybe that one that not all of those people present in a certain meeting would die before Christ’s return… Where are those “survivors” as of now again? Let alone the “Shut Door Doctrine” that was revealed by the Camden Vision…
I will leave it right here. I am a “Sola Scriptura” Christian anyway…

(Faith) #229

As a newbie on here and a beginner Bible student I think this church has felt nervous being out of mainstream Protestantism. Thus the push to make it a culture; become part of mainstream evangelicalism; continue to push the same people from the same families to the top exacerbating a class system that has become intolerable; not solving the race issue which is rotting America to the core; continuing to join with evangelical pols abusing the gender and women issue; never taking a stand against Ben Carson, etc etc. There is no more truthful message when we are a movement. This church has been so blessed with truth but from the top down we refuse to let the Holy Spirit remake us into living, loving Christians. Whether we like it or not our young people and those of us on the medical frontlines have to deal with these issues of equality & civil rights every day. Do we not trust God to deal with the judgment. Would God use stones to cry out but not women. Single women are the fastest growing group in the church. I think we have come to the point where our need for men of integrity is critical. Do we have the courage to tell homosexuals and others that we love them but the Bible would condemn their sex act and they must remain celibate. That is heavy. That is a terrible cross to bear but single people struggle with it every day and there is rare understanding or support. This church is so geared toward heterosexual couples it doesn’t realize how it sounds from the pulpit each Sabbath. We must have the courage to study these subjects and come together to support one another. We come from Eden where humans did not trust God enough and we are being recreated to trust God all the way to a new Eden. I would desire for this church to stand strong on truth but practice being good samaritans to all along this journey. From what i read we are all equal before God.

(Kim Green) #230

Welcome, Faith, to Spectrum. :slight_smile:

You have made some good points…especially regarding the “Holy Spirit remaking us into living, loving Christians”.

Yes, single heterosexuals deal with being celibate- but they are fully accepted into the church. This does not occur even with celibate homosexuals and without the same amount of love and support from the church. I have seen this for many years and there is institutionalized anti-LGBTQ+ in the church in general.

If only the church would become more like “Good Samaritans”- this world would be a much better place.

(Allen Shepherd) #231

I think this a fairly accurate assessment. The word for “with” in the text does imply he was at her side. Some think she was a bit away from her husband. I can see it either way, and both may be gotten from the text, but the first seems more accurate.

An interesting point is that God did not speak to Eve directly about the tree, but did speak specifically to Adam. He was to tell her. Now this implies some sort of subordinate relationship.
Eve does seem to take the initiative at the tree, while Adam stands by. He should have intervened. But failed in his role as protector.

I agree with you pretty much on your interpretation.

(Patrick Travis) #232

I am confused. Is Ben Carson an “old white guy?” :slight_smile: Are you suggesting he is an “Oreo cookie?” I can appreciate and be kind to all humans with dignity where they are. That doesn’t mean I have to embrace their understandings religious, social or otherwise.
Perhaps that might be a lesson even for the “progressive” left?"

(Faith) #233

I hear you. No one chooses how they come out of the womb. We are not judged for that. I think sometimes we forget that. I hope to be part of the change. But I am concerned the attitudes are getting worse again I think the church wishes this issue would just go away. My biggest concern is the young. They deserve our loving support and the opportunity to have real discussions over their questions. I know when I was young I was not satisfied with a cliched answer and the youth of today are facing tremendous issues. Maybe I am wrong but I believe I am seeing leaders taking more control than struggle in the ditch with the truth and love we all need in these difficult days.
Thank you for welcoming me here. I find it a little difficult communicating without seeing peoples’ eyes.

(Faith) #234

My initial point was the old white leaders did nothing about Ben Carson. I don’t do labels. I don’t belong on any side. And I am not a member of this church but I believe in it’s true message. I do not know any SDA’s socially & going to church is painful if you aren’t a member of the culture. When I was visiting my daughter last Christmas we found an SDA church near her. It happened to be black & it happened to be the final sermon of a retiring minister. It was one of the most beautiful sermons on God’s love & Christian living I have ever heard. I think I cried thru most of it. mr. Carson appears to be the opposite & has made it harder to witness about God’s Love on all sides of the political spectrum. He has become a joke on both sides for his unscientific & unsympathetic statements. In my humble opinion he should have resigned his membership in this church before he entered into this current political mileu. It has been a particularly polarizing one & I don’t think you realize what damage he is causing.

(Kim Green) #235

I think that you are “seeing” what is occurring now in Adventism with very clear vision. :grinning:

(Patrick Travis) #236

I see a lot of people saying Carson is so bad. What specifically has he done? What were “old white leaders” to do about him? Are your difficulties with him due to his political views, Religious views or what? The “political mileu” you refer to is very toxic and divided. I think perhaps everyone should attempt to not used their acquired filter and immediately discount others without hearing them out and seeing what they mean.
Regards & all that is best.

(Tim Teichman) #237

This GOP problem will increasingly become the problem of the SDA church and for the same reasons:

(Spectrumbot) #238

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