The Adventist Church is Led by Old White Men

(Allen Shepherd) #122

I don’t deny this. It would have been better to have allowed it. But a vote is a vote. And to ignore it, is to ask for all votes to be ignored. We are in a quandary. Someone has to give. You and Harpa stand and condemn the third world folk for their attitude, but I assume would not take such liberties with black Americans.

The third world is who it is for a number of reasons. I have spoken to George about recognizing the psychology of the matter. I think it is understandable, so therefore a bit of accommodation from the “stronger” members might be appropriate, rather than railing against them for their “primitive thinking”. We are all human with various foibles.

(Allen Shepherd) #123

I think the webEd deleted our other remarks on this matter. Do you want to sneak it in again? Just because some do something does not mean all do.

I lived among them for 8 years, you know. I knew of none of it until I returned home and heard of it. And although practiced by many ethnicities, it is primarily Muslims that are doing it now, though not exclusively. As i said, I never say it where I was. But that is an anecdotal experience.

(George Tichy) #124

Allen, you keep insisting that it is some little accommodation that is missing. No, it’s not! It is a matter of one culture not dictating certain non-spiritual issues to another culture. Why don’t they accommodate? We are not trying to impose anything on them!

Nobody is “railing against them.” I fell like we are entangled in their ropes ropes and we cannot rid of them. The words that come to my mind are, "Please, leave us alone! Stop this interference. " But…, if the GC supports them, they will keep falling for it.



I have not ever “condemned” Third World areas for their attitude. I have condemned discrimination, not taking representative votes, defending resentment votes, etc.

Just be accurate.


If you notice, I NEVER ever said all do it. I said that your point is that those from the continent of Africa should have ever right to vote as they wish about an American cultural issue.

(Allen Shepherd) #127

Like I said, Paul has told us that are stronger to accommodate the weaker. Far be it from me to suggest such a thing!

Again, commissioning is available with almost, that is almost, all that a minister can do. And yes there is railing.

Isn’t their attitude one of discrimination? Aren’t their votes resentment votes? I think you do condemn them for what they are. But cest la vie. (I’m not to good at French)

(Allen Shepherd) #128

In the past, the Africans had not vote at all. So you might say this is a reaction to that. And when they had the opportunity to vote as they did, they did.

We have voted on their cultural issues in the past, so why not a good turn?


I had no idea the question I asked you about genital mutilation had been removed. Was that your request?

This is a straightforward fact about places in Africa. A cultural practice. Our church apparently does not ask for it to cease and desist. But some who must live there are given the opportunity to vote on a cultural issue in some places on our continent. That’s all. No railing. Just the facts, sir.


They admitted that it was a resentment/grudge vote. Are you saying that folks in NAD should vote to keep funds here based on a reaction to this cultural revenge vote?


You are reading that through your own eyes.

I condemn only actions (love the sinner, hate the sin). Discrimination. Block voting. Grudge voting. Blocking women from being part of decision making in the church (through mostly males voting, etc.) I’m not condemning people. Just their unrighteous practices.

(Allen Shepherd) #132

Check Wiki on it. Not so prevalent in So. Africa where Christianity dominates. it does happen, but much less prevalent.

I don’t know, Harpa, what do you think they should do? They have had the short straw for quite a while, so taking the lead might be a bit of a heady experience. You know, like teens getting the keys.

So, I think First World Adventism is making a serious error to protest like this on a nonBiblical issue. Makes them look resentful that they cannot call all the shots. We are now a small minority, but have had great influence. We had had our day. Maybe time to relax and let them bear the burden.

Certainly the threat of withholding of funds and schism looks silly to them. And it looks silly to me.

Man, Harpa, in the context of homosexuality, this would be a big no-no. And you employ it now??


We are nowhere near this context. Why bring it up? These are my brothers (mostly–a few sisters). I’m glad they are having their day now; I’m sorry to see us go backwards into discrimination. After the move forward in South Africa under Mandella, it’s a shame to watch your own church embrace grudges, resentments, and discrimination. I think you would actually be disappointed, too, as you say: Live and let live.

As long as I live I will fight against discrimination–any kind. Brown and yellow black and white, all are precious in His sight. I learned that from birth.

(EdZirkwitz) #134


I agree that the SDA church has become an archaic bureaucracy. If women can be ordained elders
so then they can become ordained pastors.
How effective is the General Conference in furthering the mission of the church?
Local churches have no say or voices in the GC bureaucracy.
Anyway, Simone a very well written piece. Ed

(Kim Green) #135

How have I “condemned” the Developing Worlds for their “attitudes”, Allen? Furthermore…I have never "railing against them for their “primitive thinking”. These are your words…rather inaccurately and unfairly.

" but I assume would not take such liberties with black Americans."

Why would you assume this…based upon what??

(Kim Green) #136

" Certainly the threat of withholding of funds and schism looks silly to them. And it looks silly to me."

It might look “silly” to them and we can’t control how they think and feel (clearly)…but whether it does, or does not, the majority of monies flow from NAD and parts of Europe. Should the flow of money be disrupted those in those countries would feel the pinch. May not be so “silly” then…but I really think you are using the word for effect.

(George Tichy) #137

I am sorry you and Harrpa @harrpa have been accused by Allen @ajshep of condemning the TW (Third World) for their attitude. It’s obviously inaccurate. Both of you, and I, and some other people here have condemned the fact that people from other cultures are allowed to vote on actions that universalize certain procedures in Church business that do not respect each culture’s identity.

I don’t care about the attitudes and habits in other cultures as long as those people do not interfere in the habits of my culture. And vice-versa, of course.

Therefore, I lament that in some cultures discrimination of women is allowed, because this is really a deplorable behavior. But None of my business. However, in our culture most people already made progress toward a higher level pf civility and no longer support/practice discrimination of women.

It is extremely saddening that our Church (well, the GC…) is trying to keep the Church immersed in an antiquated social system. Well, at least the discriminators here are not supporting female genital mutilations… :innocent:

(George Tichy) #138

I am not disputing this info, just curious though. Can you provide examples?

(George Tichy) #139

Each Division should fund their own expenses. Why this thing about sending money abroad from one place to another? Yes, the NAD could help some specific missionary projects in another Divisions, but that’s all. And the money should not go through the GC, which is a completely irrelevant institution anyway.

(George Tichy) #140

Allen, your reaction to every single issue is exactly the same as Trump’s. Sorry to say this, but this is what I perceive from your posts. You refuse to acknowledge the real problem, and end up blaming the victim in order to smooth out the intensity of guilt of the perpetrating party.

Like the killing at the Synagogue today. There goes DT saying that it could have been much better if they had armed security. Therefore, the Jewish are partly responsible for the massacre. And I could come up with a long list of him doing this; just the Saudi issue…

It’s sad seeing you doing the same, always trying to diminish the responsibility of those in the Third World, trying to justify their acts by blaming us here on the other side.

Man, this is disgusting!

(reliquum) #141

While fulfilling your campaign promises, will you likewise refuse your salary?
You’ve urned MY vote George.