The Adventist Church is Led by Old White Men


(George Tichy) #162

YES, I think that if Elmer and I present ourselves as women for some time, Allen will just run away from here. Too many females on his case… Too much rebellion!!! He may feel overwhelmed… LOL
@elmer_cupino


(Allen Shepherd) #163

(Straight, non expressive face); “I am overwhelmed” “We are not amused, Georgette”…


(George Tichy) #164

If you are so adamant about it, why don’t you relinquish your ordination and ask to be commissioned? If it doesn’t matter, then…

Dr.Larry Garety did this a few years ago. Then, some time ago when a few women were ordained at LSU Church (yes, SECC) he was re-ordained along with them.

But you said it several times, that women really don’t need ordination to do the Lord’ work. Why do MEN need it then, Allen. Why don’t you ever tell us???


(George Tichy) #165

Wasn’t this your nickname on another site??? :thinking:


#166

Yes and here when we had Discus or whatever the earlier commenting platform was.


(Allen Shepherd) #167

This comment shows the difference in our thinking.

It doesn’t matter. If the church had offered commissioning, I would have accepted it. Or if they had not done anything, that would have been fine as well.

I did not do my work for the church, but for God. If the church wants to recognize it, OK, but if not, OK as well. If their policy is to commission, OK.

That is why I see these arguments about the Holy Spirit and ordination is irrelevant. The Spirit can do what it wants, with or without ordination or commissioning or whatever. I have seen and heard ordained ministers fail in their calling. Ordination did not help them.

There is a man here in Indiana that is a layman who is running a church, and doing it well. He does it without any credential at all, and God is blessing him. There is a woman at the church I attend, one of our best speakers, when she speaks God speaks through her. No ordination, commissioning or anything, and she is not seeking it as if it were necessary for her to do as she does.

There is a certain sense that you are the ones that put an emphasis on this like the Catholics do, that ordination confers some sort of special gift.

So, since commissioning/ordination is not an issue for me, an issue of conscience as it it for you, It does not matter one way or the other to me. If the church wants to recognize a person’s gifts by ordaining, or commissioning, well and good. Either is a kind or recognition. And since I am willing to respect the concerns of some who object, and it is not a matter of conscience, I am OK with the present situation.

Can you understand, without being judgmental, why I did not do what Geraty did? .


(George Tichy) #168

When you say “person,” does it mean male-or-female, or just male?


(Kim Green) #169

There is a point there…but, of course, this same individual has said that he doesn’t believe it anymore. However, as we know…look at behavior instead of words. :smirk:


(Kim Green) #170

No…he won’t. He has given up on “conversation” to making briefer “attacks”. I am sure that it saves him time in pointless arguments in which Allen isn’t winning.

Oh…I see that Allen has changed the conversation to boating and flowers! I wonder if he belongs to any clubs?? @ajshep


(Allen Shepherd) #171

As I said, any person.

I asked if you understood why I did not do as Geraty did. Do you?


(Elmer Cupino) #172
  • List item

The unspoken issues also include financial compensation and retirement benefits. You have made millions of money in your surgical practice thus you can afford to be “altruistic.” But others are not as fortunate as you.

-Elmira C. :blush:


(George Tichy) #173

My guess is because you don’t really care about the issue, though you sometimes pretend you do. So, if you don’t care, why would you stand up for it, right?


(Allen Shepherd) #174

I was not so “rich” as you might imagine, I spent the most productive 8 years in Africa, and then did not do that well in NE. But did have retirement after a stint in IN. I however, after one year at seminary I was not hired, and could not afford to attend another without getting together some funds. I worked a year, saved up, and went back, then was hired after that year. There have been strait times.


(Allen Shepherd) #175

That is correct on the matter.


#176

Adventist Fundamental Beliefs emphasize the Holy Spirit’s authority in gifting and calling beyond all human differences. This isn’t a matter of “women’s lib” any more than human rights‘ opposition to slavery makes that unbiblical. There is no official Adventist doctrine that excludes women from ministry or church leadership roles.

See the following:
Unity in the Body of Christ, Fundamental Belief 14
Spiritual Gifts and Ministries, Fundamental Belief 17

In your counsel with members regarding membership in the SDA church and Bible as sole source of truth how do you answer the question below regarding:

Does the Holy Spirit call who He deems fit for service to God?
Y__ or N__

Does the SDA church have the authority to create a policy that over rules the Holy Spirit choice of spiritual gift distribution to believers on the basis of gender or create sub-classes based on gender?
Y__ or N__


(Lincoln Dunstan) #177

So on the heading of “Old White Men”, all that is left to be said is, I apologise for being “old” (71) and white (my grand parents emigrated to Australia from the UK back when) and I am an office holder in an Adventist church!!


#178

Yes, if one were to stop reading after the title without reading the description/definition you would have no idea what they are talking about.

However, if after reading the description, you would I hope find that is where the characteristics mostly stop matching:wink:


(Allen Shepherd) #179

David,

What strikes me about this comment is your utter inaabiilty to see any opinion as valid except your own!

I said the Holy Spirit can call whom it wishes. If a woman is called, she can work within the framework of the church as it is now constituted. If she desires to be a minister, she can be commissionsed and do the work of a pastor. (I don’t see commissioning as a “subclass”, but an allowance for the brethren that do not agree with WO. But I don’t think you could or would understand any of that). Not ordaining ones not keep her from doing the Spirits work. There is no evidence that any women were ordained in the NT church, yet the Spirit clearly worked among them.

In other words, the Holy Spirit can do its work through the church, and the church is no stifling the Spirit to do as it wishes. WO advocates who are ready to divide the church are certainly hampering the Spirit in that regard.

Your problem seems to be that of the liberal group here. You call those who do not favor WO discriminatory, a moral judgment on them. They are immoral, and you are moral. That is just not so. There is another way to look at this, that cultural differences in gender roles are acceptable. The Bible was that way. So although there are no commands not to do WO, there is no moral command that we must. Can you let those who disagree with you have their opinion without your moral superiority and condemnation?


#180

Thank you for confirming that we have indeed created sub-classes based on gender that over rule the plain description of spiritual gifts as given by God. As a church we have then indeed second guessed God by practice of Ordination that place those He has chosen for ministry into hierarchy of gender. By your example you have again put traditions of men above God who makes no hierarchy based on gender to exercise the gifts He bestows. Such a ‘framework’ is not asked by God and we should not indulge in perpetuation of misconceptions of the equality and oneness of the body of believers that the world has created.

Liberal…really!? Why do you persist in the use petty political ideology to label brethren and create adversaries? This is a tradition of men and has no place in the vocabulary of those who claim to represent our high calling.


(George Tichy) #181

This is a confession of:

  1. Not agreeing that a woman can be “called.” It’s, “if she desires”…
  2. She cannot be ordained because she is a woman.
  3. Women can be part of a “subclass,” but not of a “real class.”
  4. “… an allowance for the brethren…”

Oh, I must give up. This is crazy!!! I can’t believe that someone can say things like that!.