The Adventist Problem with Revelation


(Eric Webster) #21

Andre, you might apply that period to the little horn of Daniel 8 but the little horn of Daniel 7 is different. It only does its work after the collapse of the fourth empire, Rome, in 476. So you have overlooked the time period of Daniel 7. In Christian love.


(Ole-Edvin Utaker) #22

Thank you, Andre. A well argued article! Historicism, as practiced within SDA theology today, is primarily about legitimizing the SDA epic story, as the ‘lead actor’ in the conclusion of human history, as we know it. It’s all about identity. Historicism, in its different forms, has never been a stamp of quality on historical research.


(Steve Mga) #23

Many decades ago I heard one S.S. Lesson Quarterly writer mention that his
document that he turned in was not like what came off the presses.
It had been “edited” and changed.
Apparently this Policy still continues and has continued over the Decades.
Apparently once a writer’s documents are handed in, there is no further
collaboration or working with the Author during the Preparation Process.


(William Noel) #24

I know two such authors who told me the changes to their manuscript were “significant.” One of them felt the edits had changed what he wrote so much that he posted a weekly series of video discussions on-line so people could learn both what had been deleted and what he had not said.


(William Noel) #25

I thought we were supposed to find our spiritual identity in Jesus and ministering the love He came to teach us about so people would want to become followers. God gave us the Bible with 66 books in it. Placing such heavy focus on just two of them is to miss the larger volume of guidance and instruction God wants us to know.


(George Tichy) #26

Even though the Soviet Union is now gone for several years, it’s “persuasive and educational” methods are still being actively used… :wink:


(Frankmer7) #27

I think he meant that for Adventism it’s all about identity. It wasn’t a positive statement. I would agree. Adventist identity is bound up with reading itself into Daniel and Revelation.

Frank


(Patrick Travis) #28

“Just Christian” isn’t enough!


(Frankmer7) #29

It really comes down to the idea that Adventism has its own version of Christ. And, it is the one who regards it as the true remnant church that keeps the Sabbath. The false one is Satan who will appear and deceive all other Christians in the end who don’t…as per EGW. They’re telling all other Christians that because they worship on the wrong day, that unless they accept the Sabbath, they won’t be really worshipping the real Christ. IOW, the Law/Sabbath becomes the ultimate test, and seal of belonging.

How does that square with Galatians, Romans, Ephesians, for starters?

Thanks, Pat…

Frank


(Patrick Travis) #30

In reality a form of the Galatian church problem. Ultimately we are saved by perfect “law keeping” rather than Eph. 2 :8,9.


(Steve Mga) #31

Ephesians 2
8. God saved you by His grace when you believed. And you can’t take credit
for this. It is a gift from God.
9. Salvation is not a reward for the good things we have done, so none of us
can boast about it.
10. For we are God’s Masterpiece. He has created us anew in Christ Jesus,
so we can do the good things He planned for us long ago.-- New Living Trans.


(Patrick Travis) #32

The issue remains …does JBF mean reckon righteous or make righteous?
Classical Protestantism declares RECKON RIGHTEOUS .
Regards


(Marrian Stinson) #33

I have been in the SDA Church since 1955. My mother found the Sabbath on her own and look for a church who kept all the Commandments of THE MOST HIGH! She found the SDA Church, and she served and obeyed all of the WORD of THE MOST HIGH that she understood until she died. I am saddened that our faith has been abandoned to become a denomination like other churches. I wrote this on the author who was only dealing with the cosmos. I realize I should have given a comment to both. I hope that all will read and understand the problems Adventist have with trying to interpret the Bible, instead of understanding and obeying what it says, as it is written. There is no private interpretation. The understanding comes from THE HOLY SPIRIT and not by ideologies of human beings. We act like the Greeks and their belief in their mythology of their gods, who they claim act more like human beings. That is the problem with us today. Stop trying to bring THE MOST HIGH down, instead, we need to raise up to know what HE, not us, is actually saying!
The truth concerning Revelation by Uriah Smith was not actually historical, neither was it true cosmic or futurist. The reason why we fail because we believed too much of what he and others wrote, instead of the Bible. Today we have put him down some, but the concepts we have are so mixed up. I watched the Hope Sabbath School class last Sabbath and I was totally dismayed!
One student actually stated that John became a spirit and went to Heaven. Another stated that the Children (the word son in both Paleo Hebrew and Greek is child or children. It is not a male’s world alone, female exist also.), of THE MOST HIGH were angels when the Bible clearly states that YAHWEH never called any angel HIS child! The teacher is my age and did not correct anything clearly at all.
I am a Biblical Historian and Revelation is historicist, futurist and cosmic. It is the continuation of Daniel! We only speak of EGW and mostly out of context, when she said clearly to take the Bible. One of her best writings, besides Early Writings, is Testimonies to the Ministers and Gospel Workers. Specifically the Chapter on How to Study the Scriptures! Simply, she said not to hold on to what we thought for years was the truth. She said when we find it to be in error, the better, and then turn and stand firm and show the error.
The Milleniums today are upset for many reasons; we give sermons with very little Scriptures or none at all. Also, we do not speak of the Investigated Judgment that Hiram Edson saw in vision. All we talk about is EGW and the books she wrote that was to uplift us, to study but not to put them above the Bible! These young folks are sick of it and they feel that THE MESSIAH’S coming is far in the future or not at all! Others have left the church and all beliefs and faith about THE MOST HIGH have been removed from their minds!
Hiram Edson was shown Revelation Chapter Four-Six and yet, we do not get it. Instead, we still cling to the errors of Uriah Smith ( especially the whore being also the beast! This is unbelievable!)
John was shown the Heavenly Sanctuary and both apartments. YAHSHUA was in THE HOLY PLACE and a door was open into THE MOST HOLY PLACE. If we’ve had taken time to read about Solomon’s Temple and The Holy Convocation Days and not the portable Tabernacle that was not permanent, we would understand Revelation. Once Israel became stable as a nation, the true pattern of YAHWEH’S HOLY Sanctuary was done. There were doors in Solomon’s Temple as it was in the Heavenly Sanctuary. 1 King 6:32 The Door in the Heavenly Sanctuary was open and THE FATHER was sitting on HIS Throne, as in Daniel 7:9, 10 Judgment was set. Now, John sees a better picture then Daniel. He sees YAHSHUA as THE PASSOVER LAMB that was slain (that ended the passover supper). THE MESSIAH moves from THE HOLY PLACE into THE MOST HOLY PLACE, there HE takes the Book of Life, which is also the history of this planet. The Seven Assemblies that were given were also the history of YAHWEH’S people starting with the Adams all the way to the last Assembly the Ladiocean, which represent us. The Seven seals THE LAMB took out of HIS FATHER RIGHT HAND, also represented those save and those blotted out of the Book. The horse represented the earth, that is why there were only four, like the four corners of the Golden Altar. It shows who was saved when the earth was pure until it starts dying as the pale horse. The Seventh seal is THE WRATH of YAHWEH on the earth as the sins of the wicked. The final souls are saved by the remnant, which is not a church or assembly but a seed!
EGW saw the 144,000 which was her first visions and she saw their names in the Sanctuary. Why are we debating this subject if it is spiritual or are they, individuals? They are individuals that will finish the work along with those in Dan 12:2 who will be raised from every age to assist like angels (messengers) swiftly moving over the earth to bring in the great multitude.
Rev Chapter Nine is not the Turks, this is the cosmos of Satan angels released from the bottomless pit. They come for the last five months (during the Time of Trouble), to torture the wicked, they cannot kill them. John sees them as smoke that covers the sun, then scorpions and their king is Lucifer- the destroyer! Daniel gives you three Appointed Times in Chapter 12. The Time of Trouble is 3 1/2 years, the hour of the beast is 1,290 days and 1,335 days adds on 15 days and it is blessed. The saints hear only the Appointed Time of YAHSHUA returned, the wicked hear only thunder.
The history of the earth is revealed to John from the beginning of time. Then, John sees the future of the earth, even when it is made new and THE ALMIGHTY ONES will come and dwell with the saints on the earth. Sin is eradicated and all is well. The cosmos shows, the evil angels’ release from prison but will return along with Satan for a thousand years. Finally, the first and second coming of YAHSHUA. First, to collect HIS saints and to destroy the beast and the false prophet who destroyed the whore in the battle of Armageddon! Secondly to return with the saints and to mete out executive judgment on Satan, his angels and the wicked. This is what needs to be understood and EGW said that both Daniel and Revelation will be understood just before THE MESSIAH returns. Now is that time! Remove what you thought was correct and return to the truth. The assembly (the church) is not going to be saved, it is the remnant and the great multitude, those who will keep all the Commandments of YAHWEH and have THE SPIRIT of PROPHECY (THE TESTIMONY) of YAHSHUA and not EGW (the messenger). Blessings!


#34

This is an excellent and very relevant post. However, I ask the author and every reader, how can one honestly read revelation as the author has recommended and still come away believing that God is a Trinity of three coequal and coeternal beings? The book of Revelation debunks all hopes of a Trinity God. Only two beings are recorded in the book that are worshipped in heaven. First the almighty God (God the father) in Rev 4(“And the four living creatures, each one of them, had six wings apiece, full of eyes around and inside, and they do not have rest day and night, saying, “Holy, holy, holy is the Lord God All-Powerful, the one who was and the one who is and the one who is coming!” And whenever the living creatures give glory and honor and thanks to the one who is seated on the throne, the one who lives forever and ever, the twenty-four elders fall down before the one who is seated on the throne and worship the one who lives forever and ever, and put down their crowns before the throne, saying, “You are worthy, our Lord and God, to receive glory and honor and power, because you have created all things, and because of your will they existed and were created.””
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭4:8-11‬ ‭LEB‬‬)

Going one chapter over we also see the angels worship the Lamb slain whom we all know and believe symbolizes Jesus Christ in revelation 5 (“And I saw in the midst of the throne and of the four living creatures and in the midst of the elders a Lamb standing as though slaughtered, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven spirits of God sent into all the earth. And he came and took the scroll from the right hand of the one who was seated on the throne. And when he took the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each one of whom had a harp and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. And they were singing a new song, saying, “You are worthy to take the scroll and to open its seals, because you were slaughtered, and bought people for God by your blood from every tribe and language and people and nation, and made them a kingdom and priests to our God, and they will reign on the earth.” And I looked, and I heard the voice of many angels around the throne and of the living creatures and of the elders, and their number was ten thousand times ten thousand and thousands times thousands, saying with a loud voice, “Worthy is the Lamb who was slaughtered to receive power and riches and wisdom and strength and honor and glory and praise!””
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭5:6-12‬ ‭LEB‬‬

If this wasn’t clear enough just 2 verses later we get confirmation again of who the angels worship in verse 13 (“And I heard every creature in heaven, on earth, in the world below, and in the sea—all living beings in the universe—and they were singing: “To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb, be praise and honor, glory and might, forever and ever!””
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭5:13‬ ‭GNT‬‬).

Both the one Seated and ON the throne (the father) AND to the lamb - be honor, glory and mighty forever.

Only 2 beings not 3. One is worshiped as the God and father of all. The other is worshiped as the SON of “the God and father of all”, the lamb slain.

For additional consideration, let’s review a few of the salutations recorded by the New Testament writers and see how many beings are salutations brought from?

“To all those in Rome who are loved by God, called to be saints. Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭1:7‬ ‭LEB‬‬
https://www.bible.com/90/rom.1.7.leb

“Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭1:3‬ ‭LEB‬‬

“Paul, an apostle not from men nor by men but through Jesus Christ and God the Father who raised him from the dead,”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭1:1‬ ‭LEB‬‬

“Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.”
‭‭Philippians‬ ‭1:2‬ ‭LEB‬‬

“to Timothy, my true child in the faith. Grace, mercy, and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord.”
‭‭1 Timothy‬ ‭1:2‬ ‭LEB‬‬

“what we have seen and heard, we announce to you also, in order that you also may have fellowship with us, and indeed our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son Jesus Christ.”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭1:3

You clearly see from these few salutations a consistent theme of greetings from God the father and our Lord Jesus Christ. Again only two beings as confirmed in revelation, God and Christ.

Lastly, consider what the main issue of the 3 angels messages is about. I believe Every Adventist will agree the main issue of the messages are “who will you worship”. Yep It’s all about Who we worship. Worship to the dragon and the beast or worship God and Christ.

So here’s The problem I see. The current Adventist movement has made the 3 angels messages and the entire book for that mtter about the Day of worship ALONE (the sabbath). We ignore the “WHO” because the current God of Adventism is the same God of the Protestant Christian faith (a Trinity God). Since our God’s are the same the issue just boils down to the day of worship and we make it our goal to call people out from Sunday worship To Sabbath worship (and tack on the other teachings such as the health message, state of the dead etc). Once they have the sabbath in this denomination, then they are in the “right” church per the book of Revelation, right? I think there is so much more than just the day.

I challenge us to consider that the end time issue is SO much more than the Day. “saying, “Do not damage the earth or the sea or the trees until we have sealed the slaves of our God on their foreheads.””
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭7:3‬ ‭LEB‬‬
“And I looked, and behold, the Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with him one hundred forty-four thousand who had his name and the name of his Father written on their foreheads.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭14:1‬ ‭LEB‬‬

The seal of God is to have a correct knowledge of WHO GOD IS. The sign that you know who God is, is that you will keep his commandments including the sabbath commandment but the sabbath is only a sign. The sabbath is not the seal. God the father is the one God of the Bible and Jesus Christ is his son. It’s really that simple. We worship the Father as God and the son as the son OF God. We do NOT worship the Holy Spirit because it is not a different divine person. It is God the father himself glorified in his son just as the scriptures teach in John 17. God the father is not limited to the throne in heaven as some want to suggest. He is present everywhere by his spirit. And he has given to his son to have that same life and ability (John 5:26). It really is this simple. We will never understand the nature of the Spirit (who the spirit functions), that is a mystery even for the human spirit contained within human beings so no issue there. But the identity of the spirit is 100% clear, God IS Spirit and we should worship God IN spirit and in truth!
This simply means that when you worship the father we are worshiping a spiritual being who is not limited to a form that contains his spirit like the human spirit is contains within the human body. The Spirit of God is the very presence of God. That is, God the father is not stuck in heaven on a throne. God the father is present everywhere by HIS spirit. This is how the father and son are ONE. The spirit of the Father glorified IN the son comes to make their abode in the Christian. Not someone else. John 14:23 (two beings)

So I challenge each of you as you study this book of revelation like the author pointed out to truly ask yourself this question. Are you worshipping the same beings that heaven worships? How many beings are worshiped in heaven? One, two or three? If your answer is One, then read again. If your answer is three, then show me those references. I hope your answer will be the two I’ve shown in this response. And if it is Two, then I ask, why are you still worshiping a Trinity or 3 person Godhead when all of heaven worship ONlY the father (as The ONE God) and the son (as the SON OF the ONE GOD)?

Could it be that the enemy has infiltrated and has positioned himself very subtlety that even the very elect have been deceived to worship him under the disguise of a title known as “God the Holy Spirit” (a different and third divine being other than the father and the son?)

My friends if the issue is simply about Sabbath observance then we have nothing to fear since we as Adventist’s keep the sabbath but if the issue is truly about “Who we worship” then I believe we all need to take a step back and truly answer the question “are we giving worship to The One God of the Bible (the father) and his only begotten son (Jesus Christ) whom The father glorified in heaven and earth to also receive worship? Or are we worshipping someone else.

I leave this with you “And eternal life means to know you, the only true God, and to know Jesus Christ, whom you sent.”
‭‭John‬ ‭17:3‬ ‭GNT‬‬.

“So then, just as sin ruled by means of death, so also God’s grace rules by means of righteousness, leading us to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭5:21‬ ‭GNT‬‬),

Romans 6 (“For sin pays its wage—death; but God’s free gift is eternal life in union with Christ Jesus our Lord.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭6:23‬ ‭GNT‬‬)

You don’t rule your beliefs, your beliefs rule you!


(André Reis) #35

Classic George Tichy :grin:


(Marrian Stinson) #36

I have been in the SDA Church since 1955. My mother found the Sabbath on her own and look for a church who kept all the Commandments of THE MOST HIGH! She found the SDA Church, and she served and obeyed all of the WORD of THE MOST HIGH that she understood until she died. I am saddened that our faith has been abandoned to become a denomination like other churches. I wrote this on the author who was only dealing with the cosmos. I realize I should have given a comment to both. I hope that all will read and understand the problems Adventist have with trying to interpret the Bible, instead of understanding and obeying what it says, as it is written. There is no private interpretation. The understanding comes from THE HOLY SPIRIT and not by ideologies of human beings. We act like the Greeks and their belief in their mythology of their gods, who they claim act more like human beings. That is the problem with us today. Stop trying to bring THE MOST HIGH down, instead, we need to raise up to know what HE, not us, is actually saying!
The truth concerning Revelation by Uriah Smith was not actually historical, neither was it true cosmic or futurist. The reason why we fail because we believed too much of what he and others wrote, instead of the Bible. Today we have put him down some, but the concepts we have are so mixed up. I watched the Hope Sabbath School class last Sabbath and I was totally dismayed!
One student actually stated that John became a spirit and went to Heaven. Another stated that the Children (the word son in both Paleo Hebrew and Greek is child or children. It is not a male’s world alone, female exist also.), of THE MOST HIGH were angels when the Bible clearly states that YAHWEH never called any angel HIS child! The teacher is my age and did not correct anything clearly at all.
I am a Biblical Historian and Revelation is historicist, futurist and cosmic. It is the continuation of Daniel! We only speak of EGW and mostly out of context, when she said clearly to take the Bible. One of her best writings, besides Early Writings, is Testimonies to the Ministers and Gospel Workers. Specifically the Chapter on How to Study the Scriptures! Simply, she said not to hold on to what we thought for years was the truth. She said when we find it to be in error, the better, and then turn and stand firm and show the error.
The Milleniums today are upset for many reasons; we give sermons with very little Scriptures or none at all. Also, we do not speak of the Investigated Judgment that Hiram Edson saw in vision. All we talk about is EGW and the books she wrote that was to uplift us, to study but not to put them above the Bible! These young folks are sick of it and they feel that THE MESSIAH’S coming is far in the future or not at all! Others have left the church and all beliefs and faith about THE MOST HIGH have been removed from their minds!
Hiram Edson was shown Revelation Chapter Four-Six and yet, we do not get it. Instead, we still cling to the errors of Uriah Smith ( especially the whore being also the beast! This is unbelievable!)
John was shown the Heavenly Sanctuary and both apartments. YAHSHUA was in THE HOLY PLACE and a door was open into THE MOST HOLY PLACE. If we’ve had taken time to read about Solomon’s Temple and The Holy Convocation Days and not the portable Tabernacle that was not permanent, we would understand Revelation. Once Israel became stable as a nation, the true pattern of YAHWEH’S HOLY Sanctuary was done. There were doors in Solomon’s Temple as it was in the Heavenly Sanctuary. 1 King 6:32 The Door in the Heavenly Sanctuary was open and THE FATHER was sitting on HIS Throne, as in Daniel 7:9, 10 Judgment was set. Now, John sees a better picture then Daniel. He sees YAHSHUA as THE PASSOVER LAMB that was slain (that ended the passover supper). THE MESSIAH moves from THE HOLY PLACE into THE MOST HOLY PLACE, there HE takes the Book of Life, which is also the history of this planet. The Seven Assemblies that were given were also the history of YAHWEH’S people starting with the Adams all the way to the last Assembly the Ladiocean, which represent us. The Seven seals THE LAMB took out of HIS FATHER RIGHT HAND, also represented those save and those blotted out of the Book. The horse represented the earth, that is why there were only four, like the four corners of the Golden Altar. It shows who was saved when the earth was pure until it starts dying as the pale horse. The Seventh seal is THE WRATH of YAHWEH on the earth as the sins of the wicked. The final souls are saved by the remnant, which is not a church or assembly but a seed!
EGW saw the 144,000 which was her first visions and she saw their names in the Sanctuary. Why are we debating this subject if it is spiritual or are they, individuals? They are individuals that will finish the work along with those in Dan 12:2 who will be raised from every age to assist like angels (messengers) swiftly moving over the earth to bring in the great multitude.
Rev Chapter Nine is not the Turks, this is the cosmos of Satan angels released from the bottomless pit. They come for the last five months (during the Time of Trouble), to torture the wicked, they cannot kill them. John sees them as smoke that covers the sun, then scorpions and their king is Lucifer- the destroyer! Daniel gives you three Appointed Times in Chapter 12. The Time of Trouble is 3 1/2 years, the hour of the beast is 1,290 days and 1,335 days adds on 15 days and it is blessed. The saints hear only the Appointed Time of YAHSHUA returned, the wicked hear only thunder.
The history of the earth is revealed to John from the beginning of time. Then, John sees the future of the earth, even when it is made new and THE ALMIGHTY ONES will come and dwell with the saints on the earth. Sin is eradicated and all is well. The cosmos shows, the evil angels’ release from prison but will return along with Satan for a thousand years. Finally, the first and second coming of YAHSHUA. First, to collect HIS saints and to destroy the beast and the false prophet who destroyed the whore in the battle of Armageddon! Secondly to return with the saints and to mete out executive judgment on Satan, his angels and the wicked. This is what needs to be understood and EGW said that both Daniel and Revelation will be understood just before THE MESSIAH returns. Now is that time! Remove what you thought was correct and return to the truth. The assembly (the church) is not going to be saved, it is the remnant and the great multitude, those who will keep all the Commandments of YAHWEH and have THE SPIRIT of PROPHECY (THE TESTIMONY) of YAHSHUA and not EGW (the messenger). Blessings!


(Edwin Reynolds) #37

I agree with your conclusions at the end, though not with every point made along the way. Permit me to respectfully comment on a couple of things. (1) Just because there were other periods of 3 1/2 years in Scripture–though I would argue that Israel’s 42 encampments probably don’t qualify, and the desecration of the Jewish sanctuary was exactly 3 years, not 3 1/2 years, nor is a Jewish tradition recorded in the post-biblical Mishnah 100 years after Revelation a valid biblical background, though I can’t believe you didn’t include the 3 1/2-year ministry of Jesus among the biblical backgrounds John’s prophecy might have in mind, especially in Rev 11:3ff–should not be used to invalidate the fact that Rev 11-13 involves prophecies about the future that pertain to a period of persecution that would be the longest in history. Jesus Himself referred to such a future time of tribulation in Matt 24:21. Ellen White identifies clearly the dates for the beginning and end of that prophecy. I think Adventists should have confidence in these dates, although I too would question many of the other dates some of our people have set–aside from 1844–based on unclear interpretations. (2) I think you may be hard on Adventists finding themselves in some of the prophecies. I believe that Rev 10 is about the establishment of this prophetic reform movement in Daniel’s end-time, which is repeatedly alluded to in the text. The command to John to prophecy again is, I believe, not only to John himself but to the people of God that John represents when he eats the little book and understands its message. The book of Revelation represents further prophecy in the end time, an explanation of Daniel’s end-time prophecies, and the message of Christ to be taken to the world in our day. I believe we also can find ourselves in Rev 12:17 and in Rev 13:11-17. I won’t take the time to go into the details, but I’m sure you know what I’m talking about. I believe that these are reasonable interpretations of the text in the context of the times in which we live and the way we worship and the commandments we keep. We are not alone, of course, but that does not mean that we cannot find ourselves there, if faithful.


(Kim Green) #38

"You don’t rule your beliefs, your beliefs rule you."

What you “feel” determines what you believe. What you “believe” determines what you feel. An endless cycle, no? :slight_smile:

As to the debate about whether or not it is a “Triune” God…does it really matter? If so, why does it matter? My guess is that it only matters as how this belief is connected to other theological beliefs. I don’t think that it matters at all to God whether or not He/She is one “person” or three.


(Patrik Aeschbacher) #39

Numbers: A time, times and half a time = 3.5; 3.5x12 (months) = 42; 3.5x360 (days) = 1260; why such an effort? Just for the sake of aesthetically motivated, literary variation? I find the concept of interpreting in an apocalyptic text a day as a prophetic year not that stupid as it is made to look up here. For me it remains an option.

Authorship: The German Sabbath school quarterly is not a direct translation of the world field edition but a heavily edited version. Alternatively there is a direct translation offered. Everybody knows that. The same way the world field edition is not identical with the manuscript but edited, sometimes heavily (that‘s why a manuscript is called manuscript). So what? This is a normal process. You can‘t seriously expect one person to be allowed to publish their hermeneutics unfiltered to the world church with the „stamp“ of an official document. If an author wishes to publish his views in such a way, today’s electronic options allow him to do so, and sometimes this is very enriching. Some of the authors of volumes for the new ABC (Adventist Bible Commentary) publish bits of their articles on Facebook. I’m very confident that not all of them will appear 1:1 in the final printed version. Why should this create a polemic? If something in this process deserves attention then it is the a) selection of the manuscript authors and b) of the members of the Sabbath school quarterly revision committee. As the selection of the increasingly influential members of the BRI, this is a black box, without adequate democratic control and open to manipulation.


(Phil van der Klift) #40

If I belong to an organisation whose identity in actuality is based upon being having correct definitions of doctrine, and I share that same identity and resultant need, then whether or not it is a “Triune” God will matter a LOT.

If I am a believer whose identity is in actuality based upon being a redeemed child of God who is being transformed, step by step, back to “abundant life” whilst ‘partnering’ with God to be used to help other ‘perishing’ fellow humans to have an opportunity to to do the same if they wish, then I doubt it matters very much at all.