The Adventist Problem with Revelation


(André Reis) #41

The length of the ministry of Jesus on earth is not a biblical datum that John would “have in mind”. It also would not really qualify as moment of “tribulation” for Israel but rather as an offer of deliverance.

There is in fact, no “explanation” of Daniel’s prophecies in Revelation nor actual quotations from that book but rather allusions and echoes only. John makes no effort to explain Daniel in terms such as “This is what Daniel meant.” There’s simply not enough information in Revelation to decide how to interpret time periods in Daniel.

The Mishnah is not considered “biblical background” as I clearly explain. Further, it encompasses a wide span of time from the second century BC to 200 AD. Passages or sections cannot be pinpointed to any particular time. It is a valid assumption that John could have been aware of this Jewish tradition, as he does of other Jewish literature.


(William Noel) #42

I ask you: How does your long discourse help me better minister the love of Jesus to others? I contend that such long explorations actually work against us doing the ministry Jesus wants all believers doing because it is distracting you away from that mission.


#43

I guess the best response I can give is this. Consider Elijah at mount Carmel. If Elijah believed in Baal like the others did would fire have come down from heaven to burn the sacrifice? The story shows us that who we God responded when the false God couldnt. God does wink at our ignorance but I believe when the evidence is clear, we loose the ability to claim ignorance any longer. Remember “you don’t rule your beliefs, your beliefs rule you”. So if you believe God is a trinity then the entire plan of salvation becomes one big role play that doesn’t fit Ruth scripture. Over 32 times the New Testament state that the father raised Christ from the dead. However no trinitarian can fully accept this because of Jesus is God himself he canny fully die both a divine and human being. You are them left to believe that “his humanity died but his divinity didn’t”. Sadly there is no scriptural support for this but we say and believe it to try to make sense of the Mystery right? Well I’m here to say that Jesus Christ fully died both a human and divine being. The greatest sacrifice ever given is truly that God gave his only begotten son and This same son (Jesus Christ) trusted his father all the way to him surrendering fully his divinity to death on a cross. Completely separated from his father in death. Christ gave 100% for you and me. He did what was impossible that we Could be reunited with the father. On the third day God the father raised his so. From the dead (as he promised) and st Pentecost he Glorified his son so that now as a 100% human and 100% divine being, he could come and live in us by his spirit as “the comforter”. Christ lives in the Christian by his spirit NOT someone else. Therefore Christ is not Just our example. He IS our life and all we need to do to overcome sin is to surrender the will of our flesh and Let Christ live in us. I am living proof that when I came to this truth a miracle happened and I have obtained lasting victory over things I struggled with all my life. Again “ you don’t rule your beliefs, your beliefs rule you”.


#44

I don’t agree that “feelings” = beliefs. Not sure where you are coming from that that. From my perspective beliefs are the foundation. Feelings are built on the foundation of beliefs.

Regarding your other question I tried to answer it in the comment below. I’ll copy and paste here my thoughts.

the best response I can give is this. Consider Elijah at mount Carmel. If Elijah believed in Baal like the others did would fire have come down from heaven to burn the sacrifice? The story shows us that who we God responded when the false God couldnt. God does wink at our ignorance but I believe when the evidence is clear, we loose the ability to claim ignorance any longer. Remember “you don’t rule your beliefs, your beliefs rule you”. So if you believe God is a trinity then the entire plan of salvation becomes one big role play that doesn’t fit Ruth scripture. Over 32 times the New Testament state that the father raised Christ from the dead. However no trinitarian can fully accept this because of Jesus is God himself he canny fully die both a divine and human being. You are them left to believe that “his humanity died but his divinity didn’t”. Sadly there is no scriptural support for this but we say and believe it to try to make sense of the Mystery right? Well I’m here to say that Jesus Christ fully died both a human and divine being. The greatest sacrifice ever given is truly that God gave his only begotten son and This same son (Jesus Christ) trusted his father all the way to him surrendering fully his divinity to death on a cross. Completely separated from his father in death. Christ gave 100% for you and me. He did what was impossible that we Could be reunited with the father. On the third day God the father raised his so. From the dead (as he promised) and st Pentecost he Glorified his son so that now as a 100% human and 100% divine being, he could come and live in us by his spirit as “the comforter”. Christ lives in the Christian by his spirit NOT someone else. Therefore Christ is not Just our example. He IS our life and all we need to do to overcome sin is to surrender the will of our flesh and Let Christ live in us. I am living proof that when I came to this truth a miracle happened and I have obtained lasting victory over things I struggled with all my life. Again “ you don’t rule your beliefs, your beliefs rule you”.


(Kim Green) #45

You summed the two views up very well, Phil. :slight_smile:


#46

I don’t follow your question. Show me a short post on spectrum? The platform is a discussion platform. I am simply stating my position. You have the right to read and comment and I have the right to respond. God bless.


(Kim Green) #47

I am coming from the psychological explanation of things, TAM. Your statement isn’t exactly sound but you believe it. :slight_smile:

You may be commenting from a phone…it is difficult to read a “Brick”. Try and break up the paragraphs because it is hard to follow your thoughts.


#48

Again, You are free to read and comment read if you want to.

If you disagree with my position that’s 100% your prerogative however you haven’t put anything meaningful on the table for discussion other than the series of belittling comments.

If you desire, we can have a discussion rather than whatever you’re trying to do here.


(Kim Green) #49

Thanks for your “permission”.

I simply don’t believe as you do and where are the “belittleing comments”? I have been on this forum for years and I definitely know what I am doing here. Why are you here?


#50

Again if you want to have a discussion, then let’s have it. That’s why it’s a forum. Otherwise I think there is little benefit in touting how long you’ve been on the forum.


(Kim Green) #51

I have had many a discussion with many people…I don’t need to have one with you. It isn’t necessary. Thanks.


#52

So why waste time to even comment on the post. Lol. Have a great weekend.


(Kim Green) #53

Yes…why comment? :wink:


#54

And still you responded. I guess you do want to comment but not sure what to say? :laughing:


(Kim Green) #55

Yes…WHY? You really are TOO clever for your own good. LOL

I will let YOU have the last word, TAM. :wink: Have a good pm.


#56

I appreciate you keeping me on my feet. It’s all in love sis. I wish you a great weekend and may you continue to grow in your relationship with God and Christ.


(William Noel) #57

Understood and agreed. You missed my point that long discourses about Daniel and Revelation do not equip a person to minister the redeeming love of God or to become channels through whom the redeeming power of God is ministered. Many in our church have become so obsessed with those two books that they are spiritual eunuchs who are utterly impotent when it comes to doing anything that proclaims the kingdom of God so that people will want to love and follow Him. Please forgive me if I am judging you by saying this, but I have seen many people who have become so focused on those two books that they were unable to see how they were driving people away from God instead of drawing people to Him. I truly hope that is not the case with you and I wish it were not true with others.


(JRStovall) #58
  1. Does Revelation in any way change the message of John 3:16?
  2. If so, how and why?

Revelation, at least to me, seems to be a ‘thorn in the side’ of Adventism. It has been discussed, debated and beat with a club to where it feels at times like an impossible dream to understand. I am a life long SDA and have an increasing feeling that the SDA church has missed the boat on what has happened in the book. Reading all of the posts on the subject of several Spectrum articles confirms that feeling.


(dale) #59

I don’t even know what to say about this piece, it is a gross misrepresentation of events. There is a lot of opinions and not anywhere near enough complete facts, many are only partially told if told at all.

This person is attacking one of the foundational teachings of the Protestant reformation. The day for a year principle was used by the Protestant reformers to identify the little horn as the papacy. In addition there were distinct markers that signified the start of the 1260 days, 42 months or 3.5 years. In the prophecies of Daniel there was only one power in which this time period was linked to. The Human power was the instrument through which the spiritual power was working. An examination of revelation 12 and13 makes this very clear, it is also evident that the tribulation spoken of does not mean that Jesus comes at the end of the 1260 years. Because after the woman was nourished for the 3.5 years the dragon was wroth with the woman and went after the remnant of her seed.

Revelation 12:13-17 KJV
[13] And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child. [14] And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent. [15] And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood. [16] And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth. [17] And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. …

Revelation 13 opens with describing who gave the power to the beast.
Revelation 13:1-2 KJV
[1] … And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the a name of blasphemy. [2] And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority. …

So the beast that came up out of the sea was given its power by the dragon. Who is the dragon?
Revelation 12:17 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into l the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

So the beast got its power from the devil. Revelation is using symbolic language to represent literal events. The fact that Jesus is referred to as the lamb gives evidence to this, also the devil is referred to as a dragon and a serpent yet we know he is not an allegory he is a real person. Moving on, the beast is now described as persecuting the saints for the 42 months that the previous chapter had attributed to the dragon persecuting the woman who had given birth to the man child (Christ)

Revelation 13:3-8 KJV
[3] And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast. [4] And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him? [5] And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months. [6] And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven. [7] And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. [8] And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. …

John also links the worship of the dragon and worship of the beast together since it is the dragon that gives the beast its power and authority. Not all parts of the bible are easy to understand, I will say that much of revelation was designed for people to understand otherwise God would be lying calling it the revelation of Jesus Christ. Christ is revealing himself and what He is doing for his people until the end of the world when he comes to redeem his people.

The apocalyptic prophecies of Daniel and revelation are Christ centred. They are proclaming the everlasting gospel. Attacking the prophecies are attacking Christ. It is speaking of what has happened and what will happen and how Christ is going to deliver his people. Attacking the day for a year principle started with Francisco Ribera and Luis Alcazar both Jesuit priests who interpreted the 1260 days/42 months/3.5 years as literal years in order to take the heat of of Rome, when the Protestant reformers had used bible prophecy to single out Rome as the litte horn power.

In trying to point that the time periods are literal days is attacking the Protestant reformation and in essence saying that it was wrong. The way adventism used the year today principle was the way that it was done by the reformers.

The 70 week prophecy of Daniel 9 shoots down any idea that the days are literal. The time periods fit because that is the way God said it was and so it is. As for the time period starting of the 1260 days, there are very clear things that are to alert us to the starting of that time period.

In Daniel chapter 2 the statue was given, there can be no mistaking the order of those kingdoms for history verified them as true. Babylon,media-Persia, Greece,Rome, then divided kingdoms (elements of Rome exist to the end represented by the iron and clay) then the end of the world. Daniel 7 gives more detail of this prophecy when looking at the horns that were on the 4th beast and how the little horn subdued 3 kings or kingdoms. The historical record also agrees with the biblical narrative. Daniel 8,11 and 12 continues to shed light on this so does revelation 11,12,13,17,18 there are more references in revelation as well, however 11,12,13 have direct references to the 1260 day time period.

The body of biblical and historical evidence points to the year day principle and the teachings of the little horn taught by the reformers and continued with the Adventists. The disappointment of 1844 doesn’t nullify the validity of the date any more than the disappointment of the disciples nullified the validity of what Christ came to earth to do. They had the time right but the event to take place was wrong. Jesus had told them many times what he came to do but because of the errors taught in their day had led them to mistake the event that was going to take place. It was because of the prophecies in Daniel that they were expecting the messiah to appear. Time was right the interpretation of the event was wrong because of popularly held errors.

While I am not a theologian or a theology student, one does not need a degree to understand the bible. It is the Holy Spirit who teaches truth. I am not saying there is no value to education. I am saying that God is more important than education in understanding and discerning truth. As for what I have read from the author I have to respectfully disagree. For what is stated does not follow the logical path that I see given in the biblical narrative and I do not see that a thorough examination was given to pertinent points, and history was left out of the equation. It is the author’s right to believe as they wish, it is also my right to disagree and voice my grievances in regard to what was said. I also know that even the reply that I have give doesn’t begin to touch the depth of the subject, I do believe that the few points that were given were sufficient given the scope of what could be done on this forum and that they do give evidence that does not support what the author was stating. As with anything people need to be a diligent Berean and examine things for themselves to see whether they be true or not.

One final point in regard to the statement made by the author [quote=“spectrumbot, post:1, topic:17797”]
the South African preacher peddling eschatological conspiracy theories,
[/quote]
Let me now link from the Oxford dictionary the definition of conspiracy: A secret plan by a group to do something unlawful or harmful.

‘a conspiracy to destroy the government’

A secret plan by a group to do something unlawful or harmful, like the scribes and Pharisees plotting to kill Jesus? Or like the devil and his angels plotting the downfall of mankind? Because that constitutes a conspiracy by definition, and the beast power working in collusion with the dragon to persecute God’s people all fall under the category of a conspiracy. So when you take into account that the devil works through people to attack God through his people then you can see how the war between God and the devil is rife with conspiracies against Christ because let’s be real, Christ is the focus of the devil’s rage. He can’t take it out on Christ so he attacks and plots to destroy his children. Calling someone a conspiracy theorist is a straw man argument, because being a Christian you must accept that there is a conspiracy against Christ and his people. Humanity is largely unawares of the workings of the devil and his angels. So are you saying that they are just a myth too?

I would much rather prefer an appeal to intellect and reason than to hear name calling.


(Frank) #60

When Jesus said in Luke 13.31-33
“The same day there came certain of the Pharisees, saying unto him, Get thee out, and depart hence: for Herod will kill thee.
And he said unto them, Go ye, and tell that fox, Behold, I cast out devils, and I do cures to day and to morrow, and the third day I shall be perfected. Nevertheless I must walk to day, and to morrow, and the day following: for it cannot be that a prophet perish out of Jerusalem.”

Jesus himself applied the day for a year principle.
When Daniel speaks of the messiah being cut off in the midst of the week, it means 3,5 days IE years.
When Daniel speaks of the little horn power coming out of the fourth beast, which is Rome, it doesn’t refer to pre-christian times.
If John uses this period, and Daniel uses this period, and the characteristics of both entities that are persecuting the church are the same, we’re dealing with the same entity that comes out of the Roman empire, and not some Greek entity or something else.

This article is so full of theological errors, it’s very impressive how anyone can publish this as having anything to contribute to the existing bible discoveries that have been done for the past 500 years. And yet some people hail it as a great revelation, the right way to interpret John. You have to be very ignorant and extremely biased in order to believe these arguments have any value. Just one more typical spectrum article attacking things that have been studied and confirmed over and over again.