Christianity alienates people - so what? Jesus Christ did NOT alienate people! The clear word of God in the New Testament makes that very, very clear. “I could care less who we alienate”. Is this the spirit of Matthew 25? No.
“Come unto me ALL”
“I am come that ALL may have life”
The only people Jesus alienated were the Pharisees. What were they like? They didn’t care about anything but doctrinal purity.
In response to Allen Shepherd, who wrote:
“But gays just don’t get married-- I calculated it
about 1.5% of the total.”
Sorry Allen, but last night, PBS television
– the national public channel here in USA,
had a huge segment in their weekly economic
section, declaring what a boost to the economy
this SCOTUS decision enabling gay marriage
has been, Florists, bakers , wedding planners,
honeymoon resorts, wedding reception halls,
are all having a field day with wedding bookings.
A huge boost to the economy from now on!
Those selling wedding dresses get more bang for the buck,
when BOTH brides want an expensive gown!
Furthermore I know MANY gay couples
in California, most of whom, had been
in long term relationships before proposition 8
was overthrown, and most of them got married,
when same sex marriage finally became legal in Calofornia.
Same is true of the gay couples I know in a Washington state,
when it recently became legal there.
How many gay/lesbian couples do you personally know, Allen,
married or otherwise?
Maybe if you had a gay/lesbian son or daughter niece or nephew,
you might be more accepting.
Believe me even the best of families are not
immune to the "gay gene"
I am reliably informed that even Ted Wilson,
has a number of close gay relatives!
In response to gareebraun, who raised the polygamy question,
asking about the “moral basis” for polygamy.
I am totally apposed to polygamy,
because I think it is demeaning to women
– who wants to be the second, third, or fourth wife?
I would not want one of my three beloved daughters
to be in such an arrangement!
However, I remind those who raise this question,
saying same sex marriage
is a “slippery slope” leading to polygamy,
that some of our most stalwart biblical heroes
were unabashedly, unambiguously polygamists,
starting with patriarch Abraham.
Even David, Christ’s ancestor,
had multiple wives and concubines.
–Not an argument for polygamy in today’s society,
but apparently God had no problem with the morality
of polygamy in Old Testsment times.
He also had a deep love for Jonathan that he said even was above his love for women. So there you have it, same sex love is indeed biblical. The problem with too many fundamentalist is they see gays as only a sex act instead of a person.
“… and let us hope that many
heterosexual couples will follow the
role models being set by the gay community,”
Seriously? As a street artist in my 20s, I had lots of gay friends in Victoria, British Columbia who were gay. I think a lot of them would smile at this comment. It’s a little too “us and them” for me to take. There are faithful people and unfaithful people. I’d advise the writer to avoid connecting sexual orientation to role models, as clever as you might think your statement is.
Christians do follow the world…
The Adventist Church I used to attend is a dysfunctional Church. 86 % get some sort of Government Aged and disability pension …all from this wicked world, all the Adventist have a Medicare card provided by the world.
Adventist get subsidised medicine from the world and for those who refused to work ob Sabbath they get unemployment benefits of the world.
All these benefits were attained by Trade Unions and those great humanitarians who fought for Social Justice and Equality. Something Adventist did not believe in.
So, “be ye in the world but not of the world” I suggest Adventist do not take the benefits this world offers you, I dare you test your faith…
Dear Jonah & all supporters of same-sex marriage,
The true Church of God does not interact with perceived human sexuality, or live by the law of the sinful flesh, but lives through the divine power of God through Jesus Christ.
This is why the Bible teaches:
“But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.” - John 1:12-13.
A Christian is born again by a power outside of him or herself, and becomes dead to their own feelings. They live by the regenerating power of God.
Please note:
“The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised.” - Luke 4:18
The Gospel teaches that instead of death and evil, Jesus imparts through the light and power of His word eternal life and goodness to those who trust in Him:
“But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them. For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus’ sake. For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.” 2 Corinthians 4:3-7
How is the Gospel effective? Through divine power (excellency of the power) working through individuals.
But the Bible clearly teaches though that the excellent power of God is not revealed through any and anyone. It is only revealed through His faithful ones.
“And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.” - Acts 5:32
“And knowest his will, and approvest the things that are more excellent, being instructed out of the law.” - Romans 2:18
Read 2 Corinthians 3.
The things that are excellent are found in the law of God, and those that live by the law do so by the power of the glory that excelleth in them, which is the personal presence of God, His Holy Spirit, in them.
Thus it is by Spirit filled obedience that a Christian has power and influence in this world for good.
The HOLY SPIRIT IS ONLY GIVEN TO THOSE THAT OBEY GOD.
Read the Chapter 12 in the Great Controversy. The French Revolution is a history lesson to the world declaring what happens when Biblical marriage is set aside for marriage between any two people, and when men disobey and disregard God completely.
Excellency of divine power certainly does not come through same-sex union as professed Christians. The divine presence will never be seen or imparted in its fullness in those who disobey God. Godly spiritual power increases with obedience, it decreases through disobedience.
Thus same sex-unions do not bring good, but evil into society. They do not bring the influence of divine power into the Christians life, but satanic power, as same-sex unions come from Satan not from the Lord. (Inappropriate - excessively judgmental. - webEd)
And so this is why God’s church should never sanction same sex lifestyles as they do not uplift but destroy society.
Who can name a society historically that grew morally, socially, and politically through same sex relations?
Why did the world need the Bible and the Reformation in order for there to be stability, especially after the Dark Ages?
“And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man’s wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power: That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.” - 1 Corinthians 2:4-5
When the power of God is manifest through the Holy Spirit, it is because men have submitted to what He said through His word, and are allowing Him to work out His power and purpose of love in their lives.
It is also to teach men that they are not to rule or be determined by what other men say, but they are to work and move in His power as declared by His word.
“Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.” - John 5:39
“Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.” - John 6:68
It is by what the scriptures teach, not what the church, or men, say, that Jesus determines who is a follower of Him.
Eternal life comes through the teachings of Jesus Christ, not by the church or public opinion.
It is by the scriptures that Jesus gives His church instruction for it is by the power of the word of God that the church lives. why? How does man live:
“Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.” - Matthew 4:4.
Thus God’s last day church, the Seventh-day Adventist Church, is not Catholic - we do not live by the authority of men or by the authority the church.
By faith we live by what the Bible teaches.
“So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.”- Romans 10:17
Those who form religious beliefs from public opinions and from church leaders, and who believe that spiritual life can be sustained from satanic teachings rather than what the Bible teaches will be disappointed.
Rather than happiness and freedom from sin, sadness and slavery to wrong habits will be the fruit of it.
It is our choice, which way do we want to live?
(Your post is far too long, judgmental and ill-informed. You would do well to first understand the issues surrounding homosexuality and Christian doctrine before you launch a screed. - webEd)
Actually Robin, I need stats. I did a rough calculation based on numbers from states that had already passed gay marriage laws. The percentage that were doing it according to my calculation was small. So until you can show me actual stats, my assertion stands.
I took the population to be about 2% homosexual, looked up the populations of the states that had passed gay marriage already, and then took 2% of that and made the calculation with he number of gay marriages that were recorded for those states.
Now with a national law, maybe the stats will change. But to say it is large by just stating that there is a lot of marriage going on without actual numbers doesn’t work. You actually don’t know.
Allen,
Two percent of the population being gay,
maybe right but it is probably a little more like 3-4 per cent?
It has been so socially unacceptable to be gay/ lesbian
that many might be still “in the closet”,
especially in those states where even though
it is now legal for them to be married,
they can still be fired from their jobs,
merely because they are gay/lesbian!
And many who have disapproving relatives,
such as right wing Adventists/Baptists/Evangelicals/
Catholocs, might deliberately hide their orientation
for that reason.
That said, some of that 2% you quote,
would be children, adolescents, or twenty something’s.
In my day, most heterosexual men were married
in their twenties. Now most of my friend’s
adult sons remain unmarried well into their
thirties, though they are definitely not gay.
If this late marriage trend also applies to gays,
then that would reduce the percentage of
married gays to the 30-60 year group.
Some of that 2 percent you talk about are
old or aged and have either lost partners
to death or break up. Believe me,
it is often difficult to find a partner
that is compatible for financial and
personality reasons when you are older.
Many older people both gay and straight,
prefer not to enter into a union where
finances are co-mingled, particularly
those who have pre-existing children
or other family heirs.
Your point is well taken-- reliable statistics
would be welcome, but anecdotally, most
of the gay couples I know in the 30-65
year age group, are married, if their state
residency so permits.
Robin
What people like Allen and others [Does Allen actually have a number of gay and lesbians he knows and talks to?] do not understand is the long lasting consequences of when a person identifies as gay or lesbian to others. As you say they can lose their job, but more important along with this, they might also lose their housing if they are renting. And especially if they become “married”.
I know a number of of gay and lesbians who married, have children, and “came out” when they were in their 40s. One friend I knew for 13 yrs, before his first was born, was head elder for years, came out when his oldest was 13, and has had a partner for close to 10 years now. He and his partner live a quiet life.
Most GL’s I know DO LIVE a very quiet, normal type of life.
As teens and early adults it IS dangerous for them to “come out”. Bullying and loss of friends is a huge issue. Family rejection is another that can be FATAL — Suicide. Or they end up on the Street as a Homeless person, having to survive any way they can. Often being taken advantaged of, and possibly abused in some way. Since they have no support system, furthering their education and developing job skills is often difficult.
Another thing that persons like Allen do not understand is-- HOW MANY GLs DO ATTEND A WELCOMING CHURCH and have a religiously meaningful life. In the past 8 years I have been singing in the choir of a small [200 member] Episcopal church, we have had at least 40 GLs in and out, several couples who have adopted kids. Right now we have at least 10 on a regular basis. A “L” white couple who adopted a black baby 3 yrs ago. About 9 months ago a Baptist “G”, 26, joined our group. Teaches theatre in high school. His parents are still at the Baptist church, but was too difficult for him there.
A Methodist Church down the street from me has 3 rows of pews where the GL’s worship together. When they have a dinner at church at least 35 persons show up. Actually, the first time I visited, and noticed this, I was surprised to see a gay couple there. Did not realize they even went to church. So, one CANNOT know who IS religiously inclined.
As you noted, Seventh day Adventist Members have been told a Lot of UNTRUTHS about GLBTIOs and this is passed on Generationally in the Home, in the School, in Sabbath School, from the Pulpit.
It is usually NOT SAFE for a questioning Teen to ask questions about him or her self to any parent, or SDA.
It would be interesting to know HOW MANY persons with HIV that Allen knows on a personal level.
Actually there is an unfortunate muddying of the term. Gays don’t want civil union. They want marriage. Anything less is an affront in their efforts to be accepted as normal. Marriage is a two fold thing in this country. A spiritual dimension and a civil one. For most Christians that means man and woman, not same genders. They see same gender unions an affront to God. Hence, the withholding of some services by businesses. Had gays been satisfied with civil equality this may be less of a shock in society. As it is there has been a sea change in the legal and social fabric of this country that we are altogether unclear as to the consequences of such.
Today is July 4.
Today is THE DAY to ring the Liberty bell.
Today is THE DAY to, as the Scriptures say, to Proclaim LIBERTY through out the Land!
Liberty and Freedom to be one’s self, to become the person God made them, to have the Freedom to use ALL the Gifts God endowed them with.
Today, WILL the Seventh day Adventist Church Give Freedom, Allow Freedom to EVERY member, EVERY prospective member?
Robin and Steve,
This number has nothing to do with the number of GL folk I know, whether it is hard to find a partner or anything. Nothing.
The 2% stat is pretty consistent across national boundaries. Google “percentage of population that is gay, internationally.” They even give an average figure for the world. So I don’t think it is much higher, maybe 3%. But that makes my figure even worse. And I think the figure is for adults, but again don’t know for sure. And check the percentage of places like Canada where it has been in force more time, or anywhere you want. Than give me the figure. I think you will find it pretty small.
Some make education society’s God /savior.
Education in what? What good is education if it makes one a white collar criminal?
Is society benefitted if all 7 billion people on Earth have the bible memorized yet are still depraved, guilt ridden, selfish, immoral and foolish?
Wisdom is what should be valued.
And on a larger scale…Matthew 10:22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name’s sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.
2 Timothy 3:12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.
As time continues…those who quote or share the bible will be accused of hate speech.
On another matter… I am noticing that the phrase…“I couldn’t care less” is trending to the shorter version…".I could care less" which is actually less apathetic.
Another example of where people need to think of the words that are tossed around
“Obvious” ??
How does this writer know this? Where are any surveys/polls to support this claim?
@cincerity, pagophilus has a point. I am 22 and I’ve been on the internet for a long time, I know people who spent all their free time on the internet. Not much to learn there. There are indeed many resources and information, but people my age don’t read those. So their opinion is based on Hollywood, popular music, twitter, 9gag and YouTube, and then they come to church and want the church to conform. Not that the church is perfect, the problems we have today, are because of mistaces in the past, things we ignored, but agreeing with sin is not the right thing to do, never. Asking how to tell gays about God’s love and his power to change us - that is a different story, but we don’t talk much about this do we? It is all about accepting and rejecting and if you reject what someone does, then you must be rejecting him as well, and that just isn’t true. Millenials from what I see as one, are messed up kids, who don’t even believe the first chapters of the Bible, because of the Internet propaganda. Millenials base their views on emotion and reason, than on Scriptures, frankly they don’t know what Scripture says. I know I had to learn my Bible all by myself, and I am a fifth generation SDA, oh and btw, the Bible does not agree with many things posted on this website, and it doesn’t agree with the general spirit of the website either. But who cares about the Bible nowadays, right?
Hi, Stanchev…
You may be correct about this but what we do/read on the internet is OUR choice and there is much good on there as well.
Correct. There are still mistakes being made and things are still being ignored which often appear here on this forum but are not being corrected today.
Unfortunately…the old “Hate the sin, love the sinner” mode of thinking hasn’t worked well within Adventism for the LGBT community. I have never personally seen that they were ever fully embraced by the SDA community no matter where I have lived.
You may have a point with some Millenials but to characterize them all this way isn’t fair or accurate.
That I see is your opinion…but not shared by all.
Obviously you and I care- or we would not be corresponding like this.
Our choice sure, but I haven’t chose wisely, many (if not all) of my friends haven’t either. We are messed up, I don’t exclude myself from this group and I spend a great time to counteract this now.
What I see on this website surely not always, but often enough is mockery, ridicule. And this isn’t good. If you want to critisize and show a mistake - do it, but with thus said the Lord, with consistent bible truths, not with mockery and with feeling and opinion based articles.
I agree that our churches need education about same sex attractions, but this doesn’t mean to compromise truth, compromise is not educaton, what people often do is to enforce a different view on the subject, this isn’t discussion, it is propaganda, and we can’t change what the bible says. Catholics can’t change the Sabbath, they just deide to ignore it.
Hate the sin, love the sinner is a biblical principle, people may have not applied it right, because they themselves may have not been filled with God’s love, ever thaught of that? Many people pray and say it doesn’t work. This doesn’t mean it’s true, what they say.
This also goes for “role models” of male and female spouses. Because they are far more numerous they have set the tone for serial “monogamy.” Those who desire marriage wish to have and give a commitment to each other and marriage as there is no compulsion for either gays or straights to marry: it is their personal choice.