The Church Triumphant: Author Interview with Mark Finley


Fyi… I was classmates with Mark and Ernestine at SLA & AUC. Very sober fellow.

(Lizwi Alpha Ntuli) #204

I just browsed through chapter one supplied, and I think unity is over emphasized. Unity even when there is serious disagreement does more harm than good. For example, if a couple decide to remain together even when they differ on the fundamentals only for the sake of the children or so that they do not get disfellowshipped from the church, murder can result. Paul and Barnabas sharply disagreed over Mark and both were sure that they were right. Instead of Barnabas using his position as more senior than Paul, he agreed that Paul goes one way while he went the other way despite the fact that policy and ordination at Jerusalem had decreed that they go together in unity. They felt that the spread of the gospel was more important than policy disagreements.

This is the sad fact I see in my church over the issue of ordination. Both sides think they are right and those who feel disenfranchised are ready to tear the church apart if their wishes are not followed, while those on the driving seat are just happy that the vote went their way. To then claim that one side is right and the other is wrong at this moment is unwise.

(George Tichy) #205
  1. This issue (WO) is not a matter of different opinions. The real issue is discrimination. One side supports and imposes discrimination of women. The other side wants to get rid of it. Only one approach can be morally right and acceptable.

  2. “…ready to tear the church apart.” Divisiveness is what “tears the church apart.” I believe it is obvious that divisiveness comes from the side that is divisive, in this case those who support discrimination of women - thus dividing the flock in two categories, one being superior and the other being inferior. This is what is tearing the church apart," slowly but surely.

  3. At least in SA2015 the “vote” didn’t go the way expected by those “in the driving seat.” They wanted the Unions’ authority on ordination being expanded to the Divisions (aka GC), and, apparently by Divine intervention, it was voted down. Their plan didn’t go through, did it? Do you really believe that Ted Wilson was “happy” not reaching his goal?

  4. Right or wrong are not defined by wisdom. It is established by clear principles - moral principles, Christian principles, religious principles. In the case of discrimination, can there actually be any doubt on what is right and what is wrong about it?

(Johnny Carson) #206

That right there is the very definition of apostasy. It doesn’t even make sense. It’s filler words to make someone feel good and to better exercise control over people who don’t know how to use critical thought.

But those words I can get behind. It’s jut too bad the Elder conflated them with words of manipulation and control which make the words of the Gospel, Christ, salvation by grace, of “none effect.”

(Thomas J Zwemer) #207

Christ did not come as man in order to save institutions.

(reliquum) #208

Or to condemn them.
Why do we who claim inerrant remnancy condemn so many (different types) of institutions?

(Frank Peacham) #209

If this is the case–policies come and go. Be in force one day and out favor the next. Policies are just human attempts for order. To keep a church from being Papal in policy there is room for the practice of different opinions within the scope of conviction and conscience. No one should be judged for following conscience over a policy issue.

(Frank Peacham) #210

‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the Kingdom prepared for you from the creation of the world.

I was hungry and you fed me,
I was thirsty and you gave me a drink,
I was homeless and you gave me a room,
I was shivering and you gave me clothes,
I was sick and you stopped to visit,
I was in prison and you came to me.’

1st What makes a Sheep or a Goat?
It is not their attitude toward Jesus—for they would do anything for the person of Jesus. But their attitude toward others. They were merciful and compassionate-kindhearted, gentle, helpful and caring. It seems strange to us: In the judgement God did not ask about their creed or religious affiliation. What mattered to God was they were a caring and loving person.

2nd Why did some Individuals lost eternal life?
It was for the omission of the good they could have done (golden rule), but didn’t. By inference they did evil—as taking advantage, neglecting and hurting others. They were self-centered and selfish. You might say for disregarding the last 6 commandments—with no repentance.

(Steve Mga) #211

Adam Hamilton in his book – “Making Sense of the Bible – Rediscovering
the Power of Scripture Today”, on page 252 asks this Question.
“Will the billions who earnestly sought to love God and neighbor yet did not
know to call upon the name of Christ be tormented eternally in hell?”
He also asks this Question --“Have they come to the Father through Jesus,
who is the way, the truth, and the life, even if they did not, in this life, know
Him or understand that He was in fact the Savior?”

(George Tichy) #212

Great questions Steve. However, may main curiosity right now is about the predicted earthquake that was announced a few days ago by that guy - whose name I unfortunately forgot. Actually, where is he? Was he sent to the “millennials club” for some violation?
Maybe @timteichman can tell us about his whereabouts since he is certainly still reading the guy’s books… maybe they became buddies by now… :rofl: :sunglasses: :innocent:

(Steve Mga) #213

What I had difficulty with was this – Wading through what he posted, and
trying to actually figure out what he was attempting to say.
To me it was a bunch of statements that seemed to lead nowhere. So I
had difficulty attempting to learn what his conclusions were.
I guess I was brainwashed at synagogue before meeting him.
He apparently has a long history of a successful life, But he has gotten mixed
up with some interesting “theologians” in his later years.

(George Tichy) #214

Just be patient, it may all be fully elucidated as soon as @timteichman finishes reading those books - hopefully before the quake-day - and then he can educate us all about it. Stay tuned… :wink:

(David) #215

Your living at the epicenter of earthquakedom may make it difficult to distinguish “the quake” from just another random occurrence. I’ll let you know if I feel anything up here in Washington.

BTW, Richard Rice’s book is an excellent book. I’m almost finished with chapter one. I’ll try to give a short synopsis when I’m done. That is if I’m still here.:joy:

(George Tichy) #216

I am glad you are enjoying Rick’s book. It is excellent. YES, post a synopsis; I bet it will trigger a very significant interest and a good discussion .

Man, if you feel the quake up there, we will indeed be all dead down here at the epicenter… :slight_smile:
Please read fast before the shaking…

Shaking? Ah, another excellent book is “The Shaking of Adventism,” by Geoffrey Paxton. (Some good deals on Amazon since it was published in 1977/78) This book was also translated into Portuguese in the early 80’s, in Brazil, by a friend of mine who remained anonymous because he was a Church employee at that time, therefore… :roll_eyes: … I guess he would be considered “in non-kompliace,” according to the new terminology used by the black suited komrades upstairs… :innocent: :innocent:

(David) #217

I remember that book from years ago when I first became involved with the church. I can’t remember what the main emphasis of the book was. I know EGW says the rejection of the IJ will be the source of the shaking. The man who introduced me to Seventh day Adventism was really into the IJ.


LOL at your handle…


I feel sorry for Mark. He comes off like an immature conventionally minded, institutional SDA who uses shallow religious lingo as a pep talk for cynical, discouraged, fanatic SDA pew warmers. I think he means well, however he is so indoctrinated in SDA approaches that he needs a reality check as to what are relevant remedial measures. I was in attendance at a recent sermon of his and heard a typical “peace & safety” sugar coated , soft sell, hope message. Fanaticism central. Just like an SDA sermon I heard this morning. Anyone feel comfortable, enthusiastic inviting any NON SDA to their church?


Push sin back , push sin back…waaaaay back.
SDA & IJ all the way!

(Johnny Carson) #221

I think the rule of thumb is to push your own sin back and see how successful you’ll be at that attempt. Then apply the lessons learned in that failed attempt to the broader church.

(Spectrumbot) closed #222

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