The Danger of Dobbs

I didn’t say you did. I was just trying to add context to my earlier post that you suggested needed clarity. But, I’m sure you realize that many people do. Many people do very hurtful things in the name of religion. Some of the most hateful people are the ones who try to impose their forms of religiously dictated morality on society as a whole. Their focus in recent times has been on abortions and the LGBTQ community but as Clerance Thomas eluded, that is bound to spread to a laundry list of what they consider wickedness. The floodgates are opening. Vengeful religious zealots are some of the most dangerous and frightening people on earth.

2 Likes

I explained why in my original comment.

Yes.

You and I agree that it’s “pretty clear” that our judgements of others are “unchristian”.

But there are others who believe and act as if judging others is what Christianity is all about.

So neither of us can prove which view is absolutely correct using Bible texts, and it seems we have little choice other than to “shake the dust from our sandals” when we find ourselves in the presence of those who behave in ways which our conscience cannot abide.

I take issue with when people throw out the text which describes that scripture is to be used for “reproof and correction”. It, most likely, should be introspective, not externally for others to point out our sins. But people obviously use it for their purposes. Religion has been used for thousands of years to put people down, keep them in their place, and point flaws.

Jesus didn’t do that. He tried to lift people up.

2 Likes

Perhaps we need to reconsider the myth of a “Godly” nation. There is scant evidence that this ever actually existed. The prophets during the monarchy and after certainly wished it existed but apart from some very short periods of time, (maybe), it never seems to have actually existed. The account given in 1 Kings is already centuries old when 1 Kings was written. Chronicles was written even later and differs markedly from the account given in Samuel-Kings. Check-out differences between how 1 Kings describes the High Place of Gibeon compared to the description in 2 Chronicles; (1 Kings 3:2-4, 2 Chronicles 3-6). This desire to be a “nation” can be trace back to the time of Samuel and I see little evidence that establishing an Earthly kingdom promoted the interests of the Kingdom of God. If more Christians understood this perhaps they would less insistent repeating this error.

2 Likes

Most of those in our country proposing entanglement of church and state are not interested in stopping abortion, getting rid of the LGBTQ community or any other thing they rail against. They don’t care one whit about the behavior. Their only interest is in thinking God is causing all our problems because we have not stopped what they conceive as the country’s sins. They are only interested in stopping what they see as God’s retribution. They have been falsely misled to think that if we make these and other societal issues disappear, that somehow God will bless this country. That was the context of the Old Testament “chosen people” theocracy. As you pointed out, it didn’t work then, and it won’t work now. I have stated why many times on this blog, but here goes again: Simply making people follow rules which are perceived by some as coming from God, will not cause God to bless anything. The blessing ONLY COMES when the people have a change of heart. As can plainly be seen, there aren’t many hearts changing. When they are truly behaving out of a desire to do God’s will, and not because of some misguided state has mandated it, and only then will God bless us. But scripture is clear, this isn’t going to happen. The worse things become, the discord, the violence, the horrific weather conditions, floods, hurricanes, fires will all continue because America is rabid with hatred, distrust and selfishness, and having the most narcissistic leader, who riveled the devil for being most prideful, for the previous four years, who the right-wing religious leaders laid hands on and said, “he was the chosen one”, have only made things worse, not better. Strap in…it is going to get worse.

Wow.

I’m so glad I gave up on this EGW/SDA pessimism back when I was naively impressed by their prophecies of doom and gloom.

Sure, my life has had its ups and downs ever since but overall the curve has been decidedly upward and I can see no reason to believe that by placing my trust in a good god, things won’t continue to get better until I die which event I no longer assume will be the worst thing that ever happens to a person.

This assumption is based not just on faith but on all the empirical evidence available, rather than spurious claims whose basis is purely anecdotal. For example, I understand those who are concerned about the climate but anyone who gets behind a 60’s muscle car and realizes that the odor in his nose is the smell of unburned hydrocarbons which were once pumped directly into atmosphere by millions of cars just like it should appreciate the fact the my wife’s hybrid Lexus actually puts our cleaner air than it takes in.

IOW, while there’s still work to do, we’ve come a long way, in that regard.

I could cite many other examples where the good, or at least neutral things in life outweigh the bad by a margin so wide as to be statistically insignificant but it’s my experience that such reminders do nothing to placate those who prefer to revel in negativity.

That is not where my pessimism comes from. Here is only a very tiny list of my WHY. It is simply watching what has gone into the dumper in the past few years. We have a supreme court that has made it pretty clear that they are going to make this into a “Christian Nation”. We have an environment that is getting progressively worse every year and we are doing way too little to reverse it. We have a lunatic in Russia that has shown a willingness to push the insane button. We have almost everything we use coming from China, who we consider an advisory. At some point that will bite us. We see any kind of choices and rights we have gained over the past half century being slowly eroded. We have the most divided country ever. It is probably more divided now than during the civil war. We are seeing an economy that has stagnated the middle class for the last 50 years while the top 1% have made magnitudes of gains. We are seeing a proliferation of millions of insanely armed citizens demanding that their right to have instruments that, solely exist for the purpose of killing is their divine right, and at the same time they can demand that a woman must remain pregnant even when the viability of the fetus will absolutely not survive, or a 10 year old has no other recourse than to travel across state lines to get an abortion, they could otherwise seriously endanger her life. It is watching the most narcissistic personality disorder in my lifetime continue to control a very significant portion of our population with conspiracy and lies and downright treasonous actions. It is watching a network of millions of websites and blogs with the most insane stretches of the imagination, spewing the most outrageous lies and a completely moronic public buying into these lies…I could go on, but what’s the use?. Yes, it has gotten worse, and it is not letting up. So yes, strap yourself in.

1 Like

:yawning_face:

(And now for something completely different…)

1 Like

Seeing as this has to do with the topic at hand, I thought I’d share this video.

@ajshep do you recall the other week how I mentioned that stacking the courts with mostly conservative judges may not seem like such a bad idea now, because they’re passing/overturning laws which you agree with, well I thought of you when I watched this presentation from pastor Ivor Myers, which is a must watch. Now I may not agree with every little thing he says, but the overall message is an eye opening one. I’d also recommend liberals watch this too. You cannot help your conservative brothers and sisters using your language, it needs to be something they can identify with.

Now pastor Ivor makes it clear - he’s not saying he’s pro-choice, or pro-secularism/atheism. But he wants to share some things with those conservatives who seem to be making these issues their fight.

I would argue that the Dobbs decision was catastrophic and hiding behind state’s rights. It is egregious in the removal of a long standing (five decade) “right to privacy” found in the “due process clause” of the 14th amendment, the amendment that incorporated all of the amendments and applied them to the states. Whether we believe in a right to life or a right to choose, the point of removing a right will have, and is already having, serious repercussions.

Justice Thomas, being analytically accurate based upon overturning the right found in Roe, has gone on record saying that we need to revisit the right to contraceptives, the right to consensual sexual relations (Lawrence in overthrowing state sodomy laws), and the right to marry whom you want to marry (the same sex marriage decision). But Justice Thomas asks for too much, because another decision (Loving) was based upon the right to privacy, and it overturned state laws banning inter-racial marriage. Hum…Justice Thomas leaves that one out, but, then again, he is married to a Caucasian woman.

Thus, I wonder how much the decision was based upon the Constitution (originalism is often used so you can discount most anything you may not like on the claim “the Constitutions says NOTHING about such things”), and the amendments and adjudications that have come before, and not on some private notion of morality held by the Justices? Along with Dobbs (that carries religious overtones as the basis for the decision) the Carson and Kennedy decisions all share something in common. This is a Court set to so protect the free exercise of religion as to come to a point of establishing the same.

2 Likes

A decade or two ago Adventists could be heard being worried over a Catholic majority of Justices as the threat to making Sunday laws. Over time that wanned. Justices on the bench moved away from Catholics populating the Court, but then came back in full force in recent years, and with many Adventists now in full support of that majority on the Bench (being Catholic and/or being raised Catholic) to insure religious liberty.

3 Likes

Huh. My father was a neurologist at the White Memorial in Los Angeles for many years. After the California Therapeutic Abortion Act in 1967, women could get a legal abortion in a hospital by doctors if they had a note from their doctor that the pregnancy would “endanger the physical or mental health of the mother.” After Rove v Wade was passed in 1973, I asked him what he had done during those 5+ years. He matter-of-factly told me that he knew his patients well, and as long as he was convinced that his pregnant patient wasn’t being coerced that he ALWAYS wrote the note. “Yes, I know their medical conditions, but my patients know their own lives. If a woman tells me she cannot handle another pregnancy, I believe her and it isn’t my place to tell her otherwise.”

5 Likes

Pastor Ivor claims it is miraculous that over 150 years ago, EGW was able to predict that America would be so close to requiring observance of Sunday as the sabbath.

But if read in context, EGW clearly expected those laws, or Supreme Court decisions, to go into effect over 150 years ago.

She also claimed during the Civil War, that England would attack America, the whole world would be thrown into global conflagration, slavery would be reinstated, the Time of Jacob’s Trouble would commence shortly and Jesus would return all before she “tasted death”.

In other words, if and when nationwide observation becomes the law of the land, it will have nothing to do with any of EGW’s predictions in that regard which were proven false around 140 years ago.

3 Likes

What ever happened to the biblical understanding that if a prophet makes a prediction and it doesn’t come true, that “there is no truth in them”? Did I miss something? Or was Ellen just babbling on without making an actual prophetic statement?

3 Likes

I believe I must disagree with this statement. Science shows that life begins at conception. We in fact do know this. The point of killing life is the subject, not how old the life has become or how mature it is to label it as a person. I wonder if Satan laughs at the confusion he has caused.
Now, mercy killing, that causes me to wonder often.

1 Like

" Science shows that life begins at conception. "

Reference please!!

1 Like

So well put, thank-you Kjames. Unfortunately people (both the right and left) have put more faith into the mainstream/social media, which has dragged them into the culture wars - whether they recognise it or not. This “culture war” is the main factor why so many have abandoned their beliefs.

Again, this is not something only conservatives are guilty of, liberals too. It was not that long ago they were known for questioning all of Americas involvement in wars; and why it is that they are fighting or arming people in other nations causing havoc and destruction to the lives of millions of people. And another one would be they were also very skeptical of the FBI, CIA etc. Questioning and exposing the lies these institutions often tell. Not so now. Be it proxy war/s or the inteligent agencies, the overwhelming majority of liberals are MIA.

2 Likes

Just study embryology ! With conception one is determined in a way that directs the mix two heritages - the one of the mother and the one of the father - in a with certainity absolute unique way - for all his life. Not only the form of his fingers or the color of his hair, but also certain patterns of doing, moving, experiencing, talents - -

    • more research here should be done - giving us amazing facts for ourselves - - -also about epigenetics, also about all that on assets and liabilities already determined for us in the moment of conception - for each individual as an just unique" Creation" - -

Testimonies ??? “The North and Tthe South” :

" - said the angel - - America will be humilated into the dust - - England is taking the advantage - - make - -use of the weak situation of our country - - reconquering her colonies - -".

See Deuteronomy 18 : 20 - 22 - - - - ??? (Out of a SDA sermon - our Union President !) about 1960)

See also Ezechiel 13 : 1 - 10 (!!!) - 22 ( !!!)

2 Likes

I respect the decision of another one of the household of our faith - as long as it is one of a man withcompetence and facing responsibilites.

I myself had - as I have declared already - given two certificattes for abortion im my humble human and fallible evaluation of the very situation.

When the discussion on the matter appeared in the sixties, we made our own guidelines for our decisions - me and a SDA gynaecologist and others - - - searching for an anthropolgy of the Bible - - and meeting the situations we had to face.

We were aware of our responisbility meeting believers of our faith - and all those not of our faith !!! We are bound by laws and bylaws and contracts and Public Health Policy - - We are citisens of a “Democratic Republic” , where the “power” = the laws - come from the people. Within this we are a minority, also as a Church - - a fellowship of believers -. - -

We were and are aware of 1 Cor 6 : 19 - 20 ( ! ) and 7 : 23 - - and 7 : 1 ff - -

I beg yourpardon : But do the ones on the streets in their march for abortion not demand :“My body is mine !!!”

And wie still are confronted with a Church that promotes coriander instead of pepper (although : Not for children.not for pregnant or breastnursing women, not for one with cardial troubles, may induce halluciantions - ) ( in Swiss “Leben und Gesundheit” - a mission periodical)) and also opposes the use of vinegar as being a poison, according to Professor Philipps and Professor Davidson - - (in “Adventist World”)

Our conclusion then ( ! ) was somehow covering the issue according to the statement coming from the GCC now (! ) - - sixty years later - -

Then - around the Sixties - the later director of BRI here heavily opposed our attempts to stimulate discussions of the problem in SDA church - it does not afflict us - Well, he just had no idea !!

Our situation was : § 144 StGb - in Criminal Law - then was to be suspended - so a politicians preballot times promise . - At last the paragraph sttill exists, but there is no persecution for all involved within the first trimenon - - (the time before you needed a physicians certificate about your life or - or - - or being endangered - -)

Then since the mid - eighties I had to evaluate if the costs of an abortion are to be covered by the Social Security. I tell you : Almost all the cases were about pregnancies because of carelessness, superstitions about getting pregnant / not getting pregnant, lack of information, just to have a cheap birth control - OK, have an abortion once the year , have it free - - ( a pregnancy is not an illness - almost ! )

We do not join another SDA from US, who in ANN declared on a matter of this field : “My Church has no stance on it !” - Boldly said : Shame on him, our belief has a stance on it !!