The Failings of Church Bureaucracy


#21

Could you explain this statement? How is the NAD’s influence minor? How is NAD’s role negligible?


#22

I believe what the author may be alluding to is the understanding, as persuasively explained by George Knight, that ordination was introduced post-Constantine by the Roman Catholic Church as a holdover of the imperial Roman tradition of religious observance. Thus, ordination is not Biblical. If this is not what he meant maybe he can clarify.


(Patrick Travis) #23

Respectfully, the word “ordination” is besides the point. Overseers/bishops were to be appointed.


(George Tichy) #24

Gill,
I am sure that if the GC were moved to another part of the world, it would really be a great step forward, and many problems could be avoided. I already suggested that Africa would be a great place for the GC staff, they would certainly enjoy working there, maybe in Munganda, or Nabunda.

Another option would be Brazil, where TW is loved and they have great respect for the GC. Maybe Andre @areis74 could suggest a good city where to establish the new offices. I would suggest Tapira, in the State of Parana, a very quiet place, excellent for deep meditation… :roll_eyes:


(Steve Mga) #25

Pat-
Ken is correct.
ORIGINALLY as you stated Overseers/Person in Charge were APPOINTED.
When the Church became Persecution Free under Constantine and successors,
then the Tradition of ORDINATION came in, and FOR MEN ONLY.
WOMEN who wanted to have a Function in the Church were “Put Away” so they
would NOT be a bother. Encouraged to take on a Life of Prayer for the Church,
LOCKED UP in a “castle of sorts” and dressed from head to toe in black. Never
to come out into the world again. Mother Superiors were appointed to be head
mistresses of the convents. It was published and popularized and still here today.
The women [girls] married Christ and the Church for life.
Men HAD to be Ordained by a Bishop. And the priests and Bishops can find their
Religious lineage back to “St. Peter”.
The Seventh day Adventist church Leaders adopted this Catholic Tradition of
ORDINATION. And NOT the Apostolic Tradition of just Appointing.

Remember part of our Parentage is John and Charles Wesley – Methodists.


(Patrick Travis) #26

Thanks Steve. But how many women were appointed as Bishops/overseers in the apostolic church? That’s my point.

PS. Keep in mind I am a Christian Egalitarian in opinion.


(André Reis) #27

:smiley: Hillarious! :smile:


(Ian m fraser) #28

NAD membership is only about 6 percent of total. Fulcrum7 folks are calling for many more non western members for ADCOM of GC. On proportionate basis only 3 or 4 will be from NAD. ALso NAD wants to send less tithe to GC and other divisions so it will have less leverage. If GC moves to Africa it will not need NAD tithe since costs will be much lower. Also most of world SDA church rejects NAD theology as too liberal eg WO. Most membership glrowth is occurring in Africa and other Americas. Presidents of GC will not come from NAD in foreseeable future. I rest my case! BRAVE NEW SDA CHURCH.


(Steve Mga) #29

Pat–
Look at the Letters in the New Testament, see the names of Prominent Women
in the church congregations.


(Thomas J Zwemer) #30

Yes Iworked with two of the three. clever, self serving, pitiful. Full of themselves.


(Harry Elliott) #31

FALSE! We must remember that Catholicism got there first. Unwittingly, Wilson is pushing for the validity of the pope’s claim of authority over all of the would-be junior popes of the world.


(Patrick Travis) #32

No problem and acknowledged but …Were they Bishops/overseers? I simply say we need to be true to the texts and see if there can later be accommodation. I believe there can be and it should not become a M/F political power struggle.


(William Noel) #33

Appointed, yes. When the Holy Spirit gifted a person for the role and made it obvious by blessing their work. They were common people empowered by God for a particular service role in the church. This contrasts with the Catholic view where ordination sets a person apart from the common people and admits them to the clergy class, who were viewed as the gatekeepers to the scriptures and the all-knowing authorities about all things spiritual who were thus entitled to to rule over the common people.

Nowhere in the New Testament have I been able to find where God authorizes or directs setting aside people into a clergy class. What I do find is God’s clear statements that believers will be empowered by the Holy Spirit to perform a role as part of the body of the church, whether great or small. Instead of arguing about ordination we should be pursuing the empowerment of the Holy Spirit and if we don’t see that empowerment working in church leaders we should be removing them from their positions and replacing them with those who are empowered.


(Steve Mga) #34

WFN –
Added to the fact that the Later than the Apostolic Church created the Priestly,
Bishop, ArchBishop, Cardinals, Pope class separate from the common people.
The Priestly Class stated it was ONLY they who could understand the Scriptures –
both the Old and New Testament, which also included the Gospels [words of Jesus].
They put it into Latin, and made it a CRIMINAL OFFENSE if anyone but the Clergy
had parts of the scriptures on them or in their homes.

So ORDINATION was a VERY SERIOUS office of the church. And it continues to
be so in the SDA church and continuing the Catholic mind-set of “Ordination”.


(Patrick Travis) #35

It seems to me that the appointment of Bishops and deacons is deliberately being overlooked and bypassed for a RCC practice of ordination. The fact remains that in the apostolic church males were chosen for the offices of Bishop and Deacon.
That is the basic model Protestant Christians have followed until the recent separation of mainline churches over this issue and LG issues.
I am simply pleading for an argument to proceed from the facts. Genuine conscientious people can fall on both sides.
Regards


(Steve Mga) #36

If one looks at the Office Of Deacons, we have a new name for that Position.
Seventh Day Adventist Community Services.
The Deacons of the Acts of the Apostles that Luke wrote about is the same
as the Seventh Day Adventist Community Services.
And you notice that these Community Services Workers had had Power from
the Holy Spirit to ALSO Baptize [Philip and the Ethiopian].
It was the same Philip who had the prophet daughters.


#37

Ha ha. I wonder when the new Sabbath School Quarterly will roll off the press on the doctrine of ordaining women to the ministry. I wonder if it will quote Dan Jackson??? Fair and balanced, you know.


(Harry Elliott) #38

As I recall, they were to be appointed by the congregation itself, once a viable congregation was established. Bishops/overseers would be senior pastors with no authority in other congregations. Why should they?


(George Tichy) #39

I wonder how this can be done in a pragmatic way. Is there a list of qualifications to check if a person is “Spirit empowered?” Who should be in charge of verifying the candidate’s “empowerment?” Who qualifies to be an “examiner?”

It’s so easy to talk about the Spirit’s empowerment, but I wonder if there is something else besides a vague and subjective “talk” that could actually be of any realistic value to the process of ordination.
@cincerity @timteichman @niteguy2 @elmer_cupino @harrpa et al.


(Thomas J Zwemer) #40

The leadership should understand and declare that-+
Leadership is a privilege given to one who has demonstrated as loving mercy, behaving justly, and walking with God in a teachable fashion. Going around taking and calling names is not in the job description. Furthermore, the mind and heart not the gonads are subject to vetting. Coherence as well as adherence to the Word that became flesh and dwelt among us is the critical essence of Pastoring.